Posts by MeanMrMustard

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

I don't want to force people to associate. I want to stop religions who force people not to associate.

What do you mean “forced”? Language matters here. They aren’t forced. They agree with the rules and therefore shun you. Or they could just talk to you anyway. They can do that. There is no gun to their head. But they agreed to the rules of the group, and to a large extent, agree with them still - enough to put them above a relationship with you.

Why stop with Polygamy? Why allow abortion?

What? I think you missed my point. BTW, I am against abortion based on private property rights, and think polygamy is perfectly fine, as long as it’s between consenting adults.

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

If their rules has a serious negative effect outside of their group...

Why stop with shunning? Ask any atheist - religion as a whole has a “serious negative effect” on society. I am troubled that you can’t see the negative side effects, the unintended consequences, your proposals will have to a true free society.

The bottom line is this:

When people are threaten by organized shunning, can we say that they are free? We are supposed to be a free society, however, these abusive religions create a sub-society where these rights are abusively taken away from them. This is where society as a whole is seriously impacted.

Who is “threatening”? Can you define that term and it’s boundaries? Who gets to interpret that? You? Who gets to decide if a religion is “abusive”? You? The members of the religion, whatever it might be, surely disagree.

What “rights” are taken away from the shunned? The right to associate goes both ways, and it seems you wish to force one side to associate at the expense of the other. And you don’t see the long term harm in such a stand? You honestly don’t see how that power, when given to a government that you won’t control forever, can’t be used against you?

I think you are conflating freedom with emotional safety.

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

@vienne: +1000

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

Please explain how preventing the JWs from ENFORCING the shunning practice (that is, excommunicate people who do not practice it) would undermine their freedom of association.

People have the right to form groups, with the rules they see fit. Others can join and agree, or leave. If the group is forced to behave, not in the way the members agree upon, but rather the way YOU think they should behave, and they have no recourse ... because accoring to you they can’t enforce the rules, then there are a myriad of rights being trampled on, one of which is freedom of association. (They can’t kick out people associating with other people they see as “bad”).

Again, I am not saying they are moral for doing this. They could be ass holes. But you can’t legislate away ass holes.

Then compare this to the freedom of association of the people being shunned by their entire social circle all at once.

Yes, the person that left the group has great freedom. He/she left!! Even if they were kicked out, they had the freedom to break the rules and the group exercised its freedom not to associate.

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

People have the right to shun whoever they want.

Progress!

The issue with JWs, is that only a minority would actually put it in practice if it was considered a conscience matter. We all know that “left to the conscience” is synonymous with “Yes! You can do that!” to most JWs.

So? This is irrelevant. The fact is this has been the policy, and still is. And it is no secret. In just about any position a religion takes, we could imagine what it would be like if the religion actually didn’t hold that position. But this has nothing to do with thinking it’s a good idea to force groups to behave the way you think they should behave.

When the WT presents the shunning practice to the courts and tell them that it is a personal religious practice that must be protected, they are lying.

It’s an official rule of the group, and they haven’t been shy spelling that out. When the rubber meets the road, the members have to inforce it. For that to occur, each member has to choose to go along with it. They have the choice to leave too.

People who do not comply with the rule or simply talk against it can be excommunicated and become victims of shunning.

Yes. Those are the rules.

If JWs want to prove that this is indeed what individual JWs want, they will need to make it a conscience matter.

This is illogical. For example, I can assert that most JWs would love to be swingers, and IF ONLY the WT would change their position on this, most would find some other couples to hook up with, and in order to prove otherwise, the WT has no choice but to make it a conscience matter. Nonsense. They don’t have to do anything. The rules were set out before hand. There is no bait and switch here.

Sadly, the only way for this to happen is likely government intervention.

No. They may change their mind in the future. But you should not force it because it sets an incredible legal presedent.

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

@poopie:

The Constitution binds government, not private institutions or individuals - “Congress shall make no law....”

That is, you are allowed to purposefully shut someone out of your life. That might make you a jerk, or it might not (maybe you consider the person a jerk). But in any case, people have that right.

In the end, this boils down to your family. The rules of the group were set out long before they joined. They have the right to speak with you, to invite you over, to eat with you. They just choose not to because they are convinced their religion is right and you are wrong. They chose the religion over family. They are convinced God wants it that way. Don’t take away their agency in this.

Also, we should minimize OUR own agency in this matter. We made our choices. At one point we all got baptized. If you were a minor and made that choice, can you honestly say that you didn’t see and understand what disfellowshipping really was? Can you honestly say you didn’t witness first hand the consequences of leaving?

And more importantly, don’t run to the government, feeling hurt, looking for blood, and advocate for a legal precedent that undermines freedom of association.

224

How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!

by Bad_Wolf in

this is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.

a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.

MeanMrMustard

JWs coerce their members to shun by threatening them of loosing contact with their entire social and family circle if they don't. This practice is clearly cruel and infringes on the right to freedom of association.

You are undermining freedom of association by appealing to freedom of association.

If you value you freedom of association, then you must allow people to freely join any group they wish - along with the clearly stated rules of the group. They can also leave the group, if they wish.

31

The downfall of the Governing Body

by john.prestor in

in a book i read a while back by the sociologist randall collins he says truly powerful people don't get angry because they get what they want in other ways, and he shows a picture of two runners where the one who's losing looks at the girl that passes her rather than ahead at the finish line, guess she doesn't wanna win the race after all.

i want to apply these to the governing body and their actions, the pattern of their actions, in printing all the hateful rhetoric against people like us and why l'm pretty sure, pretty damn confident in fact, it's all downhill from here... thanks to them and them alone.. the moment you let somebody get in your head and let them stay there they beat you, they win, they establish power, we got in their heads, they know we present a threat to them, we won't shut up, we're more brazen than we used to be, we're in the news, we're on tv, we're online we're at conventions we're in the kingdom halls, hell we're just about everywhere.

yeah, we don't have this completely down yet, sometimes we come on too strong or do something stupid, and i'm pointing the finger at myself here too, but for the most part we know how to fight this battle: we drag them into the light when they wanna hide in the dark like jackals lurking in the woods sneaking up on weak and wounded deer.

MeanMrMustard

I agree that this incarnation of the GB is nowhere as creative as, say, Fred Franz. But just to note: the WT has been printing negative rhetoric about non witnesses and apostates since it’s inception. This is nothing new.

I don’t think it is their downfall... The religion will continue, but slowly decline. That is the only way it can happen, painfully, dragging out over decades as more and more people come in contact with good information.

I think the decline will have more to do with the Information Age than apostates driving the GB crazy.

(note: the GB may crazy regardless of any apostate action)

26

Was disfellowshipping really sanctioned by God? Please share your honest views according to your Bible views

by Strugglingrsa in

what were the writers of the bible telling christians when they wrote : “stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 corinthians 5:11) regarding everyone who “does not remain in the teaching of the christ,” we read: “do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.

for the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 john 9-11.

MeanMrMustard

There is a difference between shunning and disfellowshipping. Re-read the scriptures in the OP and ask if they demand organizational action or if this is advise given to individuals, to be applied by individuals?

The former is disfellowshipping, the latter is shunning. And there is a world of difference between them.

58

Library now cleared out

by UnshackleTheChains in

well, it looks like the axe has finally fallen on our kh library.

during a deep clean of the local kh, a brother suddenly informed everyone 'whikst cleaning' that all the old books including bound volumes of the watchtower etc was to be chucked in the skip.. from what i heard, some were taken aback by this and quite annoyed that no announcement was made; that no one was given the choice of taking some of these books home to keep.

i mean the entire collection of studies in the scriptures and others that go back an entire century.

MeanMrMustard

During a deep clean of the local KH, a brother suddenly informed everyone 'whikst cleaning' that all the old books including bound volumes of the watchtower etc was to be chucked in the skip.

*sigh* ... all that wasted toilette paper...