What were the writers of the Bible telling Christians when they wrote : “Stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 Corinthians 5:11) Regarding everyone who “does not remain in the teaching of the Christ,” we read: “Do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 9-11
Was disfellowshipping really sanctioned by God? Please share your honest views according to your Bible views
by Strugglingrsa 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Strugglingrsa
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Crazyguy
Doesn’t Paul backtrack on what he wrote in 1 corthinthians in 2 Corinthians? As far a 1 John yeah the Christians really we’re pushing their new god Jesus and anyone that didn’t believe in their new god was to be avoided.
My thought would be never deny belief in Jesus around Christians as far a Corinthians if your not doing these specific things then you should be left alone but let’s not forget is that many of the teachings of Paul were either forgeries or were contradictions of what Jesus supposedly taught.
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Brokeback Watchtower
Paul was a fanatical Pharisee, who got converted by a vision brought on by temporal lobe epilepsy. Jesus never encourage judging your neighbor and shunning people who don't comply to your religious ideas. Paul is the one being fanatical and judgmental in these verses with a holier than though persona.
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Bobcat
Several things I would point out (not that a PIMI would care):
1. This is how you treat someone who "is called (present tense verb) a brother/sister." The fact that the announcement says that " so-and-so is no longer one of JWs" ─ Under any other circumstances anyone who isn't a JW would also not be "called a brother." At the WT Study non-JWs who answer are addressed as Mr. or Mrs. or Ms., not "Brother/Sister . . ." So it is pure hypocrisy and vindictiveness on the WT's part to treat a DFed one as if they are still "called a brother/sister."
2. No one, besides the Judicial Committee knows what the charges are against the person being DFed. But the letter (1 Cor) is addressed to "the church of God that is in Corinth." (1Co 1:2) Not to the elders in Corinth. Yet the WT ignores this and keeps the reasons for the DF secret. No one else knows what the DFing is for. Even if the person has taken some stand based on a conscience matter. They are treated the same as an adulterer or pedophile. It is pure wickedness on the WT's part to enforce things this way. They also do it this way to fend off defamation law suits. So they protect themselves against problems with DFing, but expect the R&F to accept any pain the procedure causes. Pure hypocrisy!
3. When the problem is doctrinal, the WT holds the R&F to whatever is currently in print. But the WT allows itself to depart from that. And if one was DFed for not accepting some teaching or understanding, and the WT eventually changes to the teaching the DFed one held to, then, there is no pardon for the DFed one. In reality, that one was DFed for not being obedient to the GB, not for disbelief. This also makes the WT guilty of lying. They condemned the person but lied about the real reason.
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sir82
I did some thinking about this a while back....
JW disfellowshipping is predicated on a committee of JW elders determining (a) if a "sinner" is repentant, and (b) if he is repentant enough.
I have never found (because they do not exist) any scriptures which indicate that God gave to humans the ability to judge the degree and genuineness of repentance that the JW elder manual directs elders to do.
There are no scriptures that indicate that God gave to humans the ability or the mandate to judge other humans. There are a bazillion, in fact, which indicate the exact opposite - judging is the domain of God alone.
It seems to me that the scriptures cited above indicate that a Christian should not associate with someone who calls himself a Christian yet who is actively and continually doing those things.
I.e., no judgment is needed to obey the scripture. Is [person X] actively engaging in the proscribed activity? Then shun him. If he is not, then don't. No judgment needed, only observation.
Anyway, that was my conclusion on the matter.
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DesirousOfChange
Which God?
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Brokeback Watchtower
If you read the bible with the assumption that everything in it is the word of God, you will gloss over many inconsistencies seen in the word's of Paul and those ascribed to Jesus. In Paul letters to the Corinthians, Paul lords over the whole group. It's seems to be the talking's of a madman which he acknowledges but proceed that way unimpeded.
2Cor. 11:23
Are they servants of Christ?-- I speak as if insane-- I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.
Paul had some serious shit going on in his frontal lobes that made him have awesome visions that made him feel really special. It's symptom of this form of epilepsy to have great thoughts about one's self and mission in life in other words: a real over the top fanatic. So take with a grain of salt anything Paul says in his black and white thinking and appointment from Jesus to be somebody special,, it's frontal lobe epilepsy nothing more.
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john.prestor
The OP weighed the dice in their own favor by the very phrasing of their question: "What were the writers of the Bible telling Christians when they wrote..."
Slow down a minute. You're referring to two writers, the apostle Paul and "the Elder," that's who claims to be writing 2 John, which apparently means "[John] the Elder," a disciple (not apostle) that the church fathers Papias and Polycarp learned from directly or indirectly. Who are these authors writing to? Paul writes to the Corinthian church, whereas "[John] the Elder" writes to "the lady chosen by God and her children" (NIV).
So the OP is already taking a bit of a leap when they say these writers were writing "to Christians." They're only writing to Christians in general if you interpret the Bible as God-inspired or God-breathed or whatever term you want to use. If you don't, then you have to take the writings at face value, which means Paul wrote to the Corinthian church of the 1st century, and "[John?] the Elder" wrote to whoever "the lady chosen by God and her children" refer to, maybe, and that's a big maybe, the Ephesian church/church in Ephesus (I've read up on this and even in the 2nd century Christians didn't know who the author was or who the author was writing to or about and they've been debating it ever since; heck, the ex-Catholic theologian Alfred Loisy thinks the letter is a forgery and was never actually written to anyone and I'm inclined to believe him).
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Strugglingrsa
Thanks for the input folks.The way I see it, is if one is pretending to be a Christian and practicing these sinful activities at the same time,that would be hypocritical. Any organization is entitled to set standards but what I don't get is the extent to which Witnessed disconnect from those who have been disfellowshipped.I don't understand how an announcement can be made that such and such is No longer a Jw, thus inferring that the person no longer meets the required standards and then they are treated as Dead... To me that is taking it beyond the scriptures..It is cruel and at least, destroys family bonds and friendships that may have been forged over years.. Why don't Jws treat disfellowshipped ones as Non WItnesses as per their announcement to the congregation and be kind and encouraging rather than lepros and worthy of death...The mistakes we make are not worthy of family disconnection in my opinion...The truth of the matter is it had caused many to commit suicide and others deep depression.. All of which Jws feel is necessary to either keep the organization clean .Its hideous and archaic .. If one does decide to return just for family ties and to reunite with friends ,one must remember that the so called friendships and bonds were conditional in the first place and judgemental.. That to me is debased...I will never again be part of an organization that cuts off fellow humans .. Being disfellowshipped has changed my thinking ...Its not healthy at all...it promotes judgemental, elitist thinking, that I cannot see Jesus would sanction.. DIscipline is one thing, eternal judgement through shunning is damaging...
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Strugglingrsa
John Prestor forgive my ignorance what does OP mean?