(I am not ignoring your questions, but my boys are ready to watch a movie with me, so I will get back to you after that... Peace)
Posts by tec
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243Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist
by DS211 inif you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?
for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?
and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?
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243
Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist
by DS211 inif you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?
for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?
and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?
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tec
DS211, there is nothing I can say or do on this board that will not have Cofty, et al, coming on and attacking me, rather than the argument. However, the things I posted are there for your consideration. If YOU want to ask me anything more about them, then I will happily answer, on the board or in PM.
Peace,
tammy
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243
Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist
by DS211 inif you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?
for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?
and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?
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tec
DS211,
Some things for you to consider about the arguments being given you (though there are some great arguments/debates on the forum regarding this issue; I'll try and look some up for you):
On the matter of Genesis 1, the the creation 'days' do not state that they are any specific amount of time. The sun and the moon and the stars created to govern the day and the night are not even formed until 'day four'. These days are time periods that could have spanned thousands, even millions of years. The account also does not say HOW God created animals, sea-life, etc.... only that He did so. It is only some fundamental, literalist views that would state that each day was a set time and that God 'poofed' things into existence.
Remember also, that a person writing these accounts with no knowledge of DNA or genes or adaptation, or even of cells, etc... is not going to be able to understand such a thing... nevermind explain such a thing to others who have no knowledge base of such things. Someone who tried is just going to be ignored, or considered nuts. That is why many things are told in metaphors that can be grasped through generations, even if something cannot yet be scientifically explained. Like John's revelation... he saw things that did not exist yet in his time (so no words existed yet) and described things according to the words and knowledge base that he DID have.
On the matter of science, such as evolution... there is no conflict between God and science, or even God and evolution. The only conflicts are those that man creates due to his lack of understanding of God or science, or both. It is okay not to have all the answers (in either one of these); the search for the answer can be pretty awesome too.
On the matter of redoing adam and eve... first, one thing people do not understand is the amount of energy (like radiation) creating life took to begin with... though one should be able to grasp that from what science has discovered. God did not snap his fingers; he is not a genie in the lamp. I cannot prove those things to you or anyone though. However, the other thing to consider in regard to adam and eve... is that God could see many who were to come FROM Adam and Eve, and so to destroy Adam and Eve would have meant to destroy... well, all of us. All who would love, do good to others, all who belonged to Him and to His Son. Gone. No chance to even exist to begin with. It would be God murdering them before they were born, something God would NOT do.
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So yes... the 'wheat and the weeds' grow together; until all who DO belong to God, who He has known before they were even born, are born and DO come to Life. So the alternative to what we have... is not having been given a chance at life at all.
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Just some things for you to consider also, while you are considering all arguments and views.
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Peace and love to you, and may you find the Truth you are seeking, and continue to show love and mercy and forgiveness to others on your path (for it is what you show that will be shown to you),
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tammy
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73
Maintaining Faith In God As An Ex-JW
by pronomono inas i fade further from the jws, i'm finding it increasingly hard to maintain faith in god.
i've been exploring many alternatives from atheism, agnostic, apathetic, pagan, and satanism (not devil worship, but the promotion of self-indulgence) to name a few.
i'm thoroughly intrigued to learn how those of you who remained christian managed to maintain your faith in god and christ, especially after enduring all the lies that we've been told about them.
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tec
Okay, Bohm... thanks for letting me know that. If ever you want to have the rephrased discussion, I would be happy to join in if you like.
Peace to you,
tammy
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They're No Better Than Animals--Dehumanization by Religions
by yadda yadda 2 inlatest thought-provoking article on www.infidels.org.. http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article877.html.
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tec
Religions do this (not all). But to be fair... atheists can do this also. Or the military/armies/countries/patriotism, etc, any group that promotes an us vs. them (some governments and groups USE religion to speed their agenda up, but it is still people doing it) Ignorant people who are also atheists dehumanize say, muslims in the middle-east... agreeing or suggesting that we just "drop a bomb on those animals".
Dehumanizing an enemy is a human thing, ironic and sad as that sounds.
Peace,
tammy
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99
Survey: Who Here Believe In God/The Bible? Who Are Not Sure? Who Do Not Believe?
by minimus ini think there are many that still want to believe in a god but just aren't sure.. personally, do you believe in a god?.
are you a "spiritual" person?.
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tec
Tammy, don't play the 'poor little girl being picked on' card.
There is no 'poor little girl' on the other end of your screen. Speaking as to the truth of what other people do does not equal playing the poor little girl being picked on card.
You often criticise the historicity and inspiration of scripture on here and you have categorically stated you do not believe the Bible can be trusted (thus harming fellow Christian's faith in the Bible), but if it weren't for those very scriptures you wouldn't even know that Christ existed. You have no reliable foundation for your knowledge of Jesus if you reject the Bible's historicity. Knowing the paradox this puts you in, you therefore continually defer to this mysterious 'Spirit' you describe that speaks to you. What is this 'Spirit' you speak of? How do you 'hear' it?
I have an entire thread that is dedictated to how one hears the Spirit... who is Christ. I would be surprised to find that you did not comment on it, but perhaps you did not see it. I believe it was the last thread that i started. And I am sure that there are threads that I and others have made regarding the bible and its inerrancy.
Just because something is not inerrant... does not mean that it is useless. It just means that it is not perfect. The bible is a finger pointing to the moon... not the moon itself.
You read that bible... it concludes with Christ being the one who reveals His Father; and Christ being the one that God told us to listen to. So at the very least, anything written in that book regarding Christ and his words and deeds, is the truth, and all else must be tested against Him.
In any case, I may have missed it, but I don't think there were any believers answering the OP questions, and arguing against the atheist answers. But rather the other way around. I could have missed it. But it is the same thing on the forum. The thread where someone asks believers who they maintained their faith... those answers MUST be argued against by certain anti-theists. In fact the first response on that thread was BY an anti-theist. So far I have not seen theists jumping on the thread that asks athesits to give their best argument against theism. (It will probably happen at some point, lol) Just an interesting observation.
(edited to add... that op just invited other theists to join in, so that is different, lol)
Peace,
tammy
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73
Maintaining Faith In God As An Ex-JW
by pronomono inas i fade further from the jws, i'm finding it increasingly hard to maintain faith in god.
i've been exploring many alternatives from atheism, agnostic, apathetic, pagan, and satanism (not devil worship, but the promotion of self-indulgence) to name a few.
i'm thoroughly intrigued to learn how those of you who remained christian managed to maintain your faith in god and christ, especially after enduring all the lies that we've been told about them.
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tec
Well, I dont think there is any christian who will say he will accept something if it is against christ or love. The problem is this: The standard of what is love become part of the beliefs and in this case constitute love is a very fluid concept. To take an illustration from the bible for once, jesus talked about putting a sword between people and splitting families, paul could be harsh, etc.
True, the standard of what people believe love is... is fluid (subjective)... unless they are looking at Christ who shows the truth of love (God). The standard of what love is... is Christ. His teachings... and if one misunderstands his teachings, then look to his deeds. While people WILL take a verse or two out of context (perhaps many verses), often to suit their own agenda in convincing themselves and others that something hateful is actually loving... these ones will always be confronted with something that Christ taught or DID, that shows them the error of their personal interpretation on this.
(Families being divided... is a statement of truth. Prophetic. It was going to and did and does happen. But not because those who belong to Christ were to shun or df their family members... it is the exact opposite; those who belong to Christ were going to BE shunned)
No, I simply mean that if I want to justify my actions, i need to do it from either what i desire or from what other people desire. If I want to do something that hurt a person, that means i have to commit to my desires being more important than his, or that he is unable to determine what is good for him.
Yes, I hear you. But there are always people who justify the harm they do to others as being good for them... or who commit to their desires being more important than anothers' desires... and this is not limited to theists (of any faith or religion), but includes atheists/anti-theists.
A person who believe his moral intuitions are (at least partly) from god can be free to do terrible things not because he like to do them, but because he feel God want him to do it. This is why we have otherwise good people shunning other people because they love the person.
Yes, and while this does of course happen... I think we will have to disagree on the entirety of the reason. Because these people may think that they are listening to God (by listening to men), but an examination of what Christ teaches (and taught, as written) will show them otherwise. So 'good' people are shunning other people because they are listening to someone/something other than Christ.
This type of danger is also present in other non-theistic systems.
Yes it is. So does that not provide some evidence that the error is in man, and not God?
I know you would never do this because it is fundamentally in contradiction to your moral instincts and so you would never hear it. but the same sort of danger exist regardless if one get ones moral from an organized religion (and check against what it tells a person what "love" means) or one gets morals from an inner voice (and check against what that voice claim "love" means).
Or gets ones morals from and checks them against some other non-theistic system, that might also be in error.
I would not be SO quick to claim that this could not happen to me. If I were listening to something/someone else who convinced me that shunning was a form of love... and I ignored Christ or did not know Christ (who teaches otherwise, and that is written as well)... then I might have done this.
(I don't THINK I would - at least not for long... because I left my study when I realized that everyone who died at armageddon was not going to get a second chance, and that was a lot of people including my own loved ones, and I could not be part of that, even if it was true... which of course it is not. Had I been listening to Christ from the start, even if that is just from reading his words and deeds, then I would have saved myself a lot of angst and known that it was not true)
Peace,
tammy
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99
Survey: Who Here Believe In God/The Bible? Who Are Not Sure? Who Do Not Believe?
by minimus ini think there are many that still want to believe in a god but just aren't sure.. personally, do you believe in a god?.
are you a "spiritual" person?.
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tec
Who cares what you claim?
You do, apparently. But anyone can test what I claim against Christ and what is written, and against the examples of those who belonged to him from what is written. I test what you say others claim against the actual definitions... and they don't match up.
But this conversation has been done more then once, and YOU have derailed threads by continuing it on any thread that I simply post an answer to the OP... so I am once again going to have to ignore you, just to keep the thread from BEING about me.
Peace,
tammy
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99
Survey: Who Here Believe In God/The Bible? Who Are Not Sure? Who Do Not Believe?
by minimus ini think there are many that still want to believe in a god but just aren't sure.. personally, do you believe in a god?.
are you a "spiritual" person?.
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tec
A spirit medium claims to receive messages from somebody who has died but who is alive in the spirit.
Who cares what 'some' spirit medium might claim? That is not what a spirit medium IS. You can look up the definitions too... except that the facts don't fit your claims.
BUT THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT YOU!
Then don't make it about me. I answered the op same as anyone else. Never argued with any posts that came before mine; just left people to answer the questions. It is you guys who cannot do the same as to me.
Peace,
tammy
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73
Maintaining Faith In God As An Ex-JW
by pronomono inas i fade further from the jws, i'm finding it increasingly hard to maintain faith in god.
i've been exploring many alternatives from atheism, agnostic, apathetic, pagan, and satanism (not devil worship, but the promotion of self-indulgence) to name a few.
i'm thoroughly intrigued to learn how those of you who remained christian managed to maintain your faith in god and christ, especially after enduring all the lies that we've been told about them.
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tec
I am still not ignoring the point. They are going to a mediator OTHER than Christ (who is the truth, the image, the word... the ONLY mediator between man and god)... and so are following the mediator they have chosen to put their faith in. (the pope, the priest, the GB, the RCC, the 'whatever'). But their mediator contradicts Christ... the ONLY mediator... and so that should be a clue that they are not listening to Christ.
I don't get instructions from god/jesus... through voices/bible.
I listen to Christ, period. Not through any other medium. There is no one in that organization who will make that claim. They make vague 'holy spirit' guidance (that reverses, and such). But even if someone DID make that claim (and for you or anyone else reading, even though I make that claim)... you should test what is being said against Christ and against love. And you should never follow another person even if they are listening to and following Christ and the things they hear and share ARE true... you should follow CHRIST. For yourself.
No one who says, "come to ME... or listen to ME"... is speaking so from what they have learned from Christ or God. False christs say come to me... witnesses to Christ say go to Christ, and, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life" (which life is something you receive from Christ... not from men)
What you claim to be from god ofcourse provide a better guide than what come out from brooklyn; i never claimed anything else. The issue is once one allow oneself to think one get instructions from God that change ones ability to assess and reason about the moral content of the instructions. I think thats an important point to be made in the light that there are plenty of people who "recieve" less sensible instructions than you do.
Okay, I believe I understand what you are saying.
It is true that some may do this, but it should not be this way. Because if something heard is ever against Christ and against love... then it is NOT true, and the person hearing should absolutely question and/or disregard what was heard, as coming from another source, even if that is just a lie that they want to believe based on their own desires or lack of love or anger or hatred, etc.
As to the testing bit, well, its quite plain you do not test your voices in any meaningful way. As far asking me to test it, I just asked God to turn of the light if you were correct, the light did not turn off, ergo...
LOl.
But that is not the testing that I have spoken of. Test what is heard against Christ, against love, and against what is written (beginning with Christ of course because He is the truth).
That is not going to mean anything to an atheist. I understand that. But for someone who has faith in Christ, those are the means to test if something someone has shared comes from (or at least could have come from) God (through Christ). Or if it is againt Christ and love, then that person has spoken presumptiously and from their own reasoning or from another 'father'.
I never said such an evil thing and I do not believe it is the case at all. Please read what I wrote again and consider the accusation.
I reread. Sorry, Bohm, I misunderstood. Your point is to the question of the presence of evil. That is a big thread. I can go there with you, but probably already have done so somewhere. The simple point is that it is man's decisions that have led to suffering such as the above, and other conditions like starvation, wars, many diseases, etc. Man's lack of love for his fellow man. Man's desire to rule over his fellow man. Man's NOT listening to Christ and God and their instruction. But listening rather to his own ambitions, his own needs, his own desires... all to the detriment of his fellow man.
What one considers to be right or wrong.
Okay, but then I don't really understand what you mean by me being able to convince someone (of what?) if they have a less sensible moral intuition... Oh. You mean I might convince someone that they are getting their morals from Christ, but their morals are terrible and cause harm?
All I can say to that... is that if someone listens to PART of the message (Christ is alive and speaks)... and ignores the FULL message (that nothing Christ ever speaks will be against love or Christ (and one can test against what He is written to have said and done), and that He will never tell you to harm another person, but rather to forgive and to show mercy; as He did the same)... well, this is someone who is still NOT listening, and is just acting out on what is in them, using Christ as an excuse. Again, no one should listen to them.
Peace to you,
tammy