Posts by MrMonroe

14

Identifying who Jehovah is using

by jwfacts in

the governing body seems to have ramped up the number of comments in the watchtower in recent years that they are chosen by god and must be trusted as such.

how exactly has jehovah manifested that the gb are his representatives and must be followed.

tell me if i am missing something, but it seems in the bible, god provided dramatic signs to prove who his representatives were, yet these days there seems to be none.. .

MrMonroe

Great thread, Paul. Some suggested rejoinders:

1. Weirdly enough, they count their numerical increase as proof of God's blessing and confirmation that God is using them. " As in the first century, today ‘a great number have become believers and have turned to the Lord.’ Although numerical increase is not in itself proof of God’s blessing, it does provide evidence that “the hand of Jehovah” is with his people." (WT05, 9/15, pg 8). "The earthly belongings of the King Jesus Christ have continually grown. Since 1971 the number of Witnesses has leaped from under 1,600,000 to a peak of over 3,700,000 in 1989. What proof of God’s blessing!" (W90, 3/15, pg 18).

2. Sure their "expectations" were sometimes awry. But in their eyes the fact that they realised and admitted they were wrong (eventually!) is proof that God continues to lead them to truth. "Things published were not perfect in the days of Charles Taze Russell, first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; nor were they perfect in the days of J. F. Rutherford, the succeeding president. The increasing light on God’s Word as well as the facts of history have repeatedly required that adjustments of one kind or another be made down to the very present time. But let us never forget that the motives of this “slave” were always pure, unselfish; at all times it has been well-meaning." (W79, 3/1, pg 23). Bottom line: they're only human, but God is patiently helping them see truths when he thinks they're ready for it.

3. See (2) above.

In summary: Absolute hogwash.

36

New Here!!

by Free!! in

i've been watching from the sidelines for a while... reading about your experiences and it has helped me a lot!!!.

i am a 27 yo girl, i converted into a jw @ 20, at was going thru a difficult time in my life and they bastards sucked me in!!!

i did not realize how controlling things were going to get... about 1 year into my study i moved w another single sister and then baptize, looking back i think i went thru w baptism because i fell pressure by the "loving" congregation that wanted the best for me... i remember coming out of the pool and one of the brothers saying "another victim" and taking a pic of me... anyways, that wasn't the worst of it.... remember single female!!

MrMonroe

Thanks for your story, Free, and welcome to the board. It's great to see people emerging through the other side of that mincing machine.

You hated the judgmentalism, and I think most of us would share your thoughts; it's often the miserable association we have with our "loving brothers and sisters" that drives us away. They watch and they judge. Even when they sense someone is falling, they do nothing to help, which puts a lie to their claim to be Christian and concerned for the welfare of others. My wife and I used to attend meetings for the last few years only to avoid being criticised, and I think many others do the same.

But I'm intrigued to know this: when and why did you start looking for websites such as this? Was there a point at which you made an intellectual decision that the organisation was wrong about doctrines or that it was baseless. (Maybe I'm being presumptuous: do you think that?) If so, was it hard pulling yourself away from the organisation and the overriding concept that they are God's Organisation™ and that you'd die if you left it?

115

How should I respond to a JW friend? (Australia)

by summerinvincible in

jw
friends

sorry if this isn't the right place to post this - brand new member here.. i recently caught up with an old friend who is a jw.

she's been witnessing to me, and i've accepted all her handouts because i don't want to hurt her feelings.

but now she's asking me for my "thoughts" about what i've read so far.

MrMonroe

Summerinvincible's friend may find some satisfaction in knowing that they didn't predict Christ's return for 1914. That would mean they're not false prophets! In the case of both dates, 1874 and 1914, they decided retrospectively that Christ had returned in those years. Through "careful Bible research".

They did, however, make a raft of other predictions that were clearly wrong. A list of them is found under "Failed predictions" at the Wikipedia article here.

There are 16 separate dates there on which they made very bold claims about Christ's return, the end of human rule and of course Armageddon. All specified dates or indicated a very short timespan (months, a "short time"). None were fulfilled. There is very little to differentiate between the Watchtower claims and those of Camping.

16

Next time someone says "as JWs were all imperfect but it's still God's Organization"....

by RagingBull in

jw
friends

after seeing some vids and links yesterday about the society's intrest in hedge funds, as well as being in the united way (they have a code for donations thru the united way) i decided to search the wt cd to see if anything negative was said about either.

look what i found;.

from the 2/15/1972 watchtower.

MrMonroe

a religious organization may appear good - doing and saying certain things taught in the Bible - but if it does not believe and faithfully adhere to all (there italics not mine) the teachings of God's Word, does God approve of it?"

That statement also ignores, of course, the plain truth that some religious organizations then add to the teachings of God's word with their own teachings and requirements, instructing members what they must do and cannot do:

Forbidding certain medical treatments;
Requiring family members be shunned for leaving a religious denomination or attending another church;
Emotionally blackmailing members with the threat of shunning;
Burdening members with a requirement to go door to door to distribute religious literature despite the patent lack of effectiveness of that practice;
Forbidding the celebration of a person's birth;
Forbidding the singing of national anthems;
Forbidding the reading of certain books because they were written by former members of that religion;
Punishing members who question, or disagree with, man-made religious doctrines .....

.... does God approve of such things?

20

Best way to record a JC (Judicial Committee) meeting

by RayPublisher in

just curious as to the best way to do it.

most new cell phones record audio, but that would leave with you when you are dismissed.

just wondering how to capture it all if it ever came to that.. .

MrMonroe

I agree with Band on the Run. Attending a JC is an acknowledgment of the power they claim to hold over you. They will have satisfaction in taking action against you. Listening to recordings of JC meetings (such as the one on the Death Or Obedience blog) makes you realise they don't actually listen to what you have to say, making it a very frustrating, unsatisfying and probably very emotional meeting.

Is it really worth it?

16

Next time someone says "as JWs were all imperfect but it's still God's Organization"....

by RagingBull in

jw
friends

after seeing some vids and links yesterday about the society's intrest in hedge funds, as well as being in the united way (they have a code for donations thru the united way) i decided to search the wt cd to see if anything negative was said about either.

look what i found;.

from the 2/15/1972 watchtower.

MrMonroe

You just can't argue with a sick mind.

Jeez, Joe Walsh made some disappointing albums in his time, didn't he? And that was one of them. Sorry, just an aside. Please continue.

115

How should I respond to a JW friend? (Australia)

by summerinvincible in

jw
friends

sorry if this isn't the right place to post this - brand new member here.. i recently caught up with an old friend who is a jw.

she's been witnessing to me, and i've accepted all her handouts because i don't want to hurt her feelings.

but now she's asking me for my "thoughts" about what i've read so far.

MrMonroe

This is a fascinating thread, and it's particularly interesting reading the responses of the JW friends. As is expected, they are simply parroting JW literature without a great deal of thought. I've been guilty of doing the same in the past. As a JW you figure there's no one better at explaining JW doctrine than their own publications, and because JWs turn a blind eyed to contradictions and logical fallacies, they repeat those same statements assuming that those hearing them will similarly accept them.

I think I may have mentioned this on another thread once: I had a study with the husband of a female JW; he was prepared to give it a go and see if he could be persuaded. We were going through the Live Forever book about Bible chronology. When I explained that "a time, times and half a time" was three and a half times (because it said so on page 140 of the book), he asked, reasonably, why times meant two times, not three or four or 22. All I could so was shrug and say, "Well, it just is, it fits."

However I agree that the softly, softly approach is best. It may, just may, be possible that a few niggling doubts creep in over time when your friends try to explain why it is that when kooky things are found in other religions it's proof that those religions are false ... but when those same kooky things are found in the history of their religion, it's OK, because it was just the "truth" of the time that was later corrected.

Few Witnesses are aware of the explicit predictions that have been made in the past by their religion. Heavy pressure was placed on members of the church at that time to accept them, because they were proof that it was God's organisation and proof that the end was sooooo near .... yet those predictions were later dismissed as "false alarms" made with good intent. Today's predictions that the end is sooooooo near are no more reliable than the old, discarded predictions, and they give no more basis to believe that the WTS is God's "organisation" .... or that he even has an organisation.

Keep chipping away. Be subtle.

And don't forget, there are many Aussie ex-JWs here. I'm in Melbourne and there'll be others from your area around here as well. All the best!

43

JWs at my Door

by laverite in

jw
friends

doorbell rang.

saw through the peephole that it was jws.

opened the door and said "hi" in a friendly manner.

MrMonroe

It's entirely appropriate for a householder to provide some unsolicited advice to someone who has arrived at their door, uninvited, as part of a highly organised proselytising campaign.

Witnesses expect householders to listen respectfully, but they are trained to talk, not listen, at the doors. They are often pushy and generally intolerant of opposing viewpoints. Although eager to push their literature on to householders and take advantage of their unfamiliarity with the Bible and JW doctrine, history and organisational practice, they refuse to accept literature from householders.

They are not going to be shocked at a blunt response from a householder, but who gives a rats if they are offended?

48

True Friendship Only Found In the Organization?

by What Now? in

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often times, i read in the magazines that only among jehovahs people will you find true friendship.

MrMonroe

@What Now, your experience mirrors that of my wife and I. A favored few got the royal treatment whenever they needed something; when my wife gave birth and we encountered problems no one did a thing. We moved cities several times and battled to break through the cliques, but were never accepted in any of them. We have much better friends, and on a more solid basis, since we left.

That's fine .... except they maintain this crap about "genuine" friendships that can't be found anywhere else in the world.

18

Worldy opposition is interpreted as confirmation of the truth

by MrMonroe in

interesting comment on the talk page of the wikipedia article on the governing body here:.

one dopey jw (wandering-teacher) who complained that the article was "biased" against the jws was supported in a comment by another assumed jw (galik) who whined that the article was "peppered with quotes from known opposers of jehovah's witnesses in order to use this article as a propaganda vehicle".. wandering-teacher replied: "thanks for the support, galik.

the difficulty of having a neutral point of view in the ... article strengthens my faith that i have made the correct religious choice for me.".

MrMonroe

Interesting comment on the talk page of the Wikipedia article on the Governing Body here:

One dopey JW (Wandering-teacher) who complained that the article was "biased" against the JWs was supported in a comment by another assumed JW (Galik) who whined that the article was "peppered with quotes from known opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses in order to use this article as a propaganda vehicle".

Wandering-teacher replied: "Thanks for the support, Galik. The difficulty of having a neutral point of view in the ... article strengthens my faith that I have made the correct religious choice for me."

Andrew Holden, in his sociological study of the JWs, ("Jehovah's Witnesses: Portrait of a Contemporary Religious Movement," p.76) wrote:

"Ostensibly they are on a mission to save others, but actually they are confirming to themselves their own worldview. ... Doorstep rebuffs are regarded by the Society as the fulfilment of New Testament prophecy, namely that Christ's true followers will be the objects of hatred on account of his name. Hostility of this kind merely confirms the Witnesses' negative perceptions of the outside world and supports their rational biblical logic. ... Doorstep rejection is perceived in terms of persecution, an essential feature of the Last Days."

For that JW chatting on Wikipedia, the mere fact that the WTS has critics confirms for him that they are the true religion. Evidently the thought hasn't crossed his mind that Jim Jones, David Koresh and L. Ron Hubbard all said the same thing about external criticism.