Posts by Larsinger58

4

What message could WE send to active jehovahs witnesses we know on the eve of this memorial date.Suggestions ?

by smiddy in

isn`t their some unified message that all ex-jw`s could send to any and everybody they know on the eve of the memorial ?

either by slow mail, facebook, e-mail ,phone , twitter ,blog ,letters to the editor newspapers , or whatever other means ?.

i mean to say they have a campaign to reach as many people as possible with their memorial invitation.. why cant we have a campaign to reach as many jw`s we know to expose the wt/religion at the same time ?.

Larsinger58

The ideal thing is my new prochure which I plan to title: JESUS DID NOT DIE ON NISAN 14TH.

It will not mention JWs specifically, but will basically show that Jesus ate passover on a sabbath day and so was arrested on a sabbath day and thus could have died on a sabbath day. JWs teach Jesus died on Nisan 14th. They don't realize the early Israelites followed Egyptian custom and didn't change the date until midnight, so the date did not change at sunset to Nisan 14, but not until midnight. That is part of why JWs can't figure out the precise date of Jesus' death. They know passover was eaten on Nisan 14, even though the Israelites leave Egypt on the 15th. The key here is that passover is eaten before midnight, but the Israelites leave Egypt after midnight, when the date changes.

I'm going to make this ONE POINT and keep it simple. I guess I better get it going. It will be one page, front and back. I'll see about electronic formats. But it will be a basic concept that the same night passover is eaten is the same night that was made into a national holiday, thus a special sabbath day for all time, and thus Jesus could not have died the same night he eats passover. Witnesses should be able to grasp that simple concept. They will then wonder why the WTS hasn't grabbed upon this "new light."

I'll post it when its done. I haven't done any publishing in a while!

Just a thought: Maybe I can find a good graphic of Jesus Christ impaled on a CROSS to go on the title page! That way it won't seem like it is witness oriented, when really it is! OR, maybe showing him impaled on a torture stake might be more fun! But clearly, smart witnesses will surely interpret that as apostate! I think Jesus on a cross is more clever!

Ciao

25

Don't e-mail DF'd family members - Congregation Reaction (WT 1/15/2013)

by 00DAD in

do not look for excuses to associate with a disfellowshipped family member, for example, through e-mail.

- w2013 1/15, p. 16, para.

in the congregation i attend, no one--and i mean no one--commented on the directive to not communicate with df'd family members by email.

Larsinger58

I hereby resolve to use MY FREE WILL to do whatever the Watchtower tells me to do!

Amen to that!!!

26

Why do they assume they were anointed?

by Sheep2slaughter in

i am well aware that this thread could diverge into a discussion of the legitimacy of the watchtowers view of heavenly class and earthly class and what not.

... but that's not the thrust of my question.

i just replied to a thread about going to memorial and started thinking how after jesus started out no one talked about actually doing it after the initial time.

Larsinger58

Do we not understand that the ruling as Priest and king is future? in the heavens?

No. It is a misunderstanding that Christ does not return in the flesh. Christ rules with the elect for 1000 years on the earth!

There are several scriptures that confirm this, but one is 1 Thess 4:15-18 where we find a question about just who goes to heaven first? Will it be those who alive when Christ returns? Or will it be those who are resurrected? Here is Paul's answer:

1 Thess 4:15 For this is what we tell YOU by the Lord’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

Now let's just stop and analyze this. What do we learn from this scripture?

1) For one, everybody goes to heaven at the same time! No one precedes anyone else up to heaven.

2) We know the dead rise FIRST! Then AFTERWARD all together to go heaven.

So what is this saying? It is saying that if those who have died and been resurrected don't get their spiritual bodies until those who are living when Christ returns get theirs so that all together get their spiritual bodies, then the dead who rise must rise back into the flesh!

That is, the first resurrection of the elect who have died in Christ rise first back into the flesh before Christ's return. Then they join those of the elect who are alive when Christ returns, so that everyone is in the flesh at the time of Christ's return. Then, of course, Christ himself also returns in the flesh to rule for 1000 years. After that Satan is destroyed and then JUDGMENT DAY takes place. Then after the last person is judged, then is when the elect, having finished their work as king-priests on the earth, go to heaven with Christ.

There is no way around this. This is yet another misunderstanding (false teaching) the witnesses. That is, that since 1914 those of the "anointed" who die faithfully go straight up to heaven. WRONG! No one goes to heaven before anyone else! Thus they have a complicated and convulted explanation about just when the anointed who survive Armageddon will go to heaven. You know, Armageddon occurs, the 1000 years begin, but some of the anointed are still on the earth? They even said it is possible, being of very old age that some of the anointed just might die from the trauma of Armageddon and go to heaven then, but that didn't mean Jehovah was killing them as punishment! WRONG!

At any rate, 1 Thessalonians along with other scriptures confirm that Christ will be in the flesh at the second coming and will rule with his king-priests, who will also be in the flesh and thus that rule will be hands-on on the earth! But doesn't that make sense? How much more effective would that rule be if all were right there present in the flesh? Otherwise, how do they rule from heaven? Giving inspired dreams to selected "other sheep" elders who do the actual work?

Plus you have other issues. For instance, when Satan is let loose to test the post-millennial population, those rebels are said to "encircle the camp of the holy ones." Now is that literal? Or figurative? That is, how do they encircle the camp of the holy ones if the holy ones are in heaven and they are on the earth?

REV 20:7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

How can they encircle the beloved city if the holy ones are ruling from heaven? But if the holy ones are on the earth, then the "beloved city" certainly could be a reference to the capital city from which Christ will be ruling. This sounds like this is happening on earth, does it not? I mean they are said to "advance over the breadth of the earth" to get to this beloved city and the camp! So the camp must be on the earth. But what is surprising about this? That is, it is not surprising we have this earthly description because Christ and the elect will actually be on the earth at this time!

I recently attended a church service in which one of my relatives was the minister. Just as a passing question, I asked about the millennium rule of Christ and where it would be? Of course, he thought it would be from heaven. But I asked about Satan being let loose after the 1000 years and where would this be? I was trying to get him to see that there would be people on the earth during the 1000-year reign. But his response was not to deal with it! Very much like witnesses who sniff an "apostate" attack! So some people get one idea in their minds and they hold on to that idea by closing their eyes and not examining anything else that makes them THINK!

The WTS does the identical same thing! Case in point if you ask just how is it that Christ's impalement is at the third hour (9 o'clock) (Mark 15:25) while his trial is not until the sixth hour (12 o'clock)? (John 19:14). Or you ask how is it that it gets dark at the sixth hour after Jesus' impalement, but his trial is not until the sixth hour? The WTS admits they do not know but regardless, it's okay, they know the Bible is true and Christ still died for our sins!

A Seeming Discrepancy. Some have pointed to what appears to be a discrepancy between the statement at Mark 15:25, which says Jesus was impaled at “the third hour,” and that at John 19:14, which indicates that by “about the sixth hour” Jesus’ final trial before Pilate was just ending. John had access to Mark’s account, and he certainly could have repeated the time stated by Mark. Therefore John must have had a reason for stating the hour differently from Mark.

Why the seeming discrepancy? A variety of suggestions have been offered. None of these satisfy all objections. We simply do not have enough information to explain with any certainty the reason for this difference between the accounts. Perhaps Mark’s or John’s reference to the hour was parenthetical, not in chronological order. Whatever the case, one thing is certain: Both writers were inspired by holy spirit.

The synoptic Gospels clearly indicate that by the sixth hour, or 12 noon, Jesus had already been hanging on the stake long enough for the soldiers to cast lots over his garments and for the chief priests, the scribes, the soldiers, and other passersby to speak abusively of him. They also indicate that about 3:00 p.m. Jesus expired. (Mt 27:38-45; Mr 15:24-33; Lu 23:32-44) The truly important thing to remember is that Jesus died for our sins on Nisan 14, 33 C.E.—Mt 27:46-50; Mr 15:34-37; Lu 23:44-46. t

You see, they don't have the answer and can't figure it out because it doesn't fit their false teaching about when Christ died!

But really, there is no discrepancy. The problem is the WTS itself who doesn't follow the Bible nor knows about Passover ritual and tradition. If they did, they would know that Passover is the first event that occurs on the 1st day of unfermented cakes. It is eaten from sundown to midnight. Then later that day they celebrate the festival of unfermented cakes. The Israelites left Egypt the same night passover is eaten. Thus passover is eaten on the same day as they celebrate the festival of unfermented cakes, the day they leave Egypt, which was Nisan 15th. Now part of the misunderstanding comes from the dating. That is, they think while the sabbath day begins at sunset that also the DATE changes at sunset. But this is not correct. The Israelites when they first left Egypt followed Egyptian custom of changing the solar date at midnight. Thus it was exactly like today. The sabbath is clearly Saturday, but it begins on Friday after sunset. Thus it was still Nisan 14th from sunset to midnight; after midnight it turned to the 15th. But that means that Jesus was arrested on Nisan 15th, which is always a special sabbath day, and thus could not have died that day. The Bible clearly says he died on a day of preparation just before a great sabbath, meaning a special sabbath. Plus he was in the grave for three nights. It is easy to count back from Saturday night to Thursday night. So we know Jesus died on a Thursday and we know that Thursday had to be a day of preparation before a "great sabbath" or a "high sabbath." When we look at a calendar of 33 CE, we see that, indeed, Thursday, Nisan 20th, was a special day of preparation before the "high sabbath" of the 21st. The 15th and the 21st are special "high sabbaths" of Passover week. Further, for him to be in the grave for THREE NIGHTS, and to rise after a sabbath, you have to have two sabbath days in a row. You can't die on a Friday and rise on a Saturday night and claim you were in the grave for "three nights." Thus in 33 CE, that Friday is a special sabbath of passover, the 21st, which is followed by the regular sabbath. So, indeed, you have two sabbath days in a row for that weekend; a special sabbath followed by a regular sabbath.

So now, everything works out. Jesus ate passover on the sabbath day of the 1st day of unfermented cakes, while it was still Nisan 14th until midnight. The meal ends at midnight at which time the date changes to the 15th. Jesus was thus arrested on the 15th, which was early that Saturday morning. Pilate didn't see him until just before noon ("but early" meaning just before the early evening watch which is from noon to 3 pm; John 18:28). He then sent him to Herod to be examined. Herod had all the way until that following Wednesday to try Jesus since that week some prisoner would be let loose on the day before the sabbath. So the morning of Wednesday, Nisan 19th is when Pilate and Herod became close political friends over what was happening with Jesus. Then Jesus' final trial at noon was Wednesday, Nisan 19th. Then he was impaled that night at 9 p.m. (the "third hour") and remained impaled all that night until the next day until at noon it became dark for three hours, then Jesus died. That's it. No discrepancy at all.

Now the WTS has been told this and knows this and has for a long time. But willl they change their false teaching about Jesus dying on Nisan 14th? No. They are like the prophesied "goats" who buck against truth and insist on their superficial teachings, just like people in Christendom sometimes hate to think through new things that might contradict what they have decided is true. They quickly note these details are not important and doesn't change that Christ died for our sins! Yes, but why not go further and understand the TRUTH? Why insist on preaching falsehood?

In fact, I think I'm going to put out a brochure for this "Easter" and Passover time called: "JESUS DID NOT DIE ON NISAN 14TH!" It will show how Jesus must die on Nisan 20th to be accurate with scripture. It's the least I can do. I won't mention anything about JWs in it; I don't want to be labeled as part of a "hate group." I'll keep it simple though and emphasize how Passover is eaten on a special sabbath day, always! If that's the case, then he could not have been impaled that same day.

Also, in passing (I'm smiling at this), the local church which I attended was gearing up for EASTER! I'd forgotten what a big deal Easter was in Christendom. When I mentioned to my relative-pastor that "Easter was a pagan holiday worshipping the goddess Ishtar", he didn't want to hear a thing about it! Even though you can find this on the internet and it is rather common knowledge. Christ's resurrection has nothing to do with rabbits and eggs, but fertility worship does! Anyway, this was something that he just didn't want to discuss. But it reminded me of the witnesses, who simply don't discuss or hear anything that challenges them! They are totally open for long discussions and Bible studies as long as you don't ask any questions that expose their false teachings. The moment you do, you're an "apostate" and they shut you down, but also their own minds. It's sad. But it's one of the ways they can maintain their false teachings! Just ignore figuring anything out!

Perhaps this is why in Revelation, the Lamb-Dragon beast that comes out of the "earth" and thus represents Jehovah's earthly organization, the witnesses, is said to be an image of the "666 beast" which is trinity-666-believing Christgendom (that comes out of the "sea"). Both foster false teachings and maintain that by bucking against any discussion or in-depth reasoning on things that contradict them. It's the same love for spiritual darkness that Christendom has. Christendom thinks Easter is a wonderful Christian holidy and the witnesses think they are living in a "spiritual paradise" -- both of which are made possible by closed eyes and closed minds.

229

How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

by mP in

theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

Larsinger58

it is the SCHTICK and CARROT like many Mosaic Laws,

would you consider that as one of the fulfillments by Jesus,

and other pretenders?

besides that we die because of the talking snake? and needed a schtick and carrot as a tutor?

As has also been prophesied, some will understand and some will be confused. They will look but cannot see. They will listen but cannot hear. So the Bible will make sense to those who it was primarily written for, the 'elect' and for outsiders it will remain a "carrot." Some of us are completely fulfilled by scripture which is like a bright light to us now, and others see darkness; the harder they look, the darker it gets.

26

Why do they assume they were anointed?

by Sheep2slaughter in

i am well aware that this thread could diverge into a discussion of the legitimacy of the watchtowers view of heavenly class and earthly class and what not.

... but that's not the thrust of my question.

i just replied to a thread about going to memorial and started thinking how after jesus started out no one talked about actually doing it after the initial time.

Larsinger58

Why do they (the Watchtower Man) assume that first century Christians were all of the anointed class? Is there any support for the notion that they all were anointed?

Many things are fulfilled by JWs, because they are the temple sect that would appear after the "2300 evenings and mornings" (Daniel 8:14).

The two-class system that would exist among Jehovah's witnesses for a time is demonstrated in the prophetic parable of the vineyard workers. Basically, the master hires workers to work for a full day and they receive a "penny" for that day's work. The "penny" represents the call to heaven. Those first hired understood up front they would receive the "penny." This would apply to the first and second-hour workers. But then, when the third-hour workers come in, they are not told they would receive the "penny", but whatever was fair. So from the third-hour workers all the way to the 11th-hour workers, they expected something less than a penny.

A half hour in the bible is 3.5 years, so an hour is 7 years. So the 11 hours of work took place over a period of 77 yeras, from 1914 to 1991. But note when the 3rd-hour workers are being recognized. That would be 21 years from 1914, which means around 1935! 1935, as noted, is the time when the "other sheep" class was officially recognized, a group of those believing they did not have the heavenly calling, but something less, which was the earthly hope.

So the two-class system is definitely prophesied and connected with JWs!

BUT...!!! As some note, it seems confusing that Christ makes a covenant with just some of Christians and not all of them! Well, it turns out ALL have that opportunity for the heavenly calling, that is, the "penny." That is why, once the work is done, during the 12th hour, which would be from 1991-1998, starting with the last to the first, the "other sheep" class are invited into the kingdom. That is, they are paid the penny! Thus even though some of the workers knew in advance they would get the penny, ALL the workers end up being offered the penny. Now the first-hour workers murmur against this, but they still get their penny. They were faithful workers. So the murmuring simply reflects what a surprise understanding this was to them at the last minute. It means the anointed associated with the GB and WTS doctrince would not understand that the "other sheep" would be invited into the kingdom and thus those from both classes will go to heaven.

Now we know the WTS, which is now in spiritual darkness, does not understand this. The WTS has a persecution complex, always being persecuted by someone, so they see themselves as the 11th-hour workers compared to Christendom. They see themselves as coming relatively late into the work during the 20th Century, compared to the earliest workers and older religions, like the Catholics who came into the work much earlier. Thus they see Christendom murmuring against them for having God's favor. But what about the 3rd to the 9th hour workers who also get the "penny"? Who are they? The WTS has no concept for these, since they think they are the only ones who will be getting the penny and who are invited to heaven. But the parable clearly shows that not only do the 3rd through the 11th hour workers get the penny, so does the 1st-hour workers, even though they murmured against the 11th-hour workers! EVERYBODY GETS THE PENNY! THUS EVERYBODY GETS INVITED TO HEAVEN! So how can the WTS be just the 11th-hour workers? It doesn't work! It doesn't work because they don't understand this parable.

Now to add a little context here, the WTS also thinks there are only 144,000 in the heavenly class. But per Isa. 6:13, which speaks of tree that is cut down but where the root remains, the root makes up 10% of the entire tree. Thus even though the Jews did get punished and lots seats in the kingdom for their unfaithfulness, a small remnant of them would still fulfill the Abrahamic promise of a kingdom of priests based on the 12 tribes of Israel. Thus the 144,000 represent that Jewish root of natural Jews who fulfill the kingdom. Thus if the root of 144K is 10% of the entire tree, then the gentiles must make up the other 90%, which is 1,296,000. That means the total number in the kingdom is 1,440,000!

Plus, per the parable of the vineyard workers, it would appear that at least among JWs, many don't understand their heavenly calling until after 1991, with those of the "anointed" being the earliest witnesses from 1914 to 1928, basically, with the "other sheep" appearing by the third hour, officially recognized in 1935.

But now you might ask, why then since 1991 have we not seen more partakers? Well, it turns out not everybody qualifies to get into the kingdom. You have to be awake! Remember, when the call goes out about the wedding feast taking place, many have excuses and beg off. So many that were invited end up not showing up and their places are taken by others, outsiders. So while technically all the "other sheep" were eligible for the kingdom after 1991, if they did not answer the call, they did not get anointed.

But of very important note, those that did get anointed also understood that Christ's second coming did not occur 1914, but in 1992. So those new ones anointed into the kingdom would be part of the "wise virgins" class and they would not share this with the foolish virgins class. They would also understand that Passover of 1993 would be the first and the LAST official Memorial celebration upon Christ's return. After all, the Memorial is only to be kept until Christ returns! After he retuns, then it is not necessary to keep the Memorial of his absence! That has always been something witnesses were not able to answer, which is: IF CHRIST ARRIVED IN 1914, WHY ARE YOU STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL?

Turns out since they got the date wrong, it was okay until Passover of 1993 to still celebrate the Memorial. But after that, there is no need. So even though we see some increase in the elect since 1991, those who understand fully what is going on, do not celebrate the Memorial, because they know Christ returned in 1992 and it is no longer necessary.

Now, again, keep in mind that the "wise virgins" don't give any of their oil to the "foolish virgins." That means they are keeping their knowledge to themselves. Discovering that Christ arrived in 1992 is something they must find out on their own. So that means there are some in the congregation who are keeping a secret. They know the truth, they know the WTS is the "false prophet" and the "evil slave" but they are not telling the rest of the congregation.

So that means when I go to the Hall, or at least when I did, I knew who were of the elect and who were my followers, whom I sometimes met secretly or passed special information to. So they definitely know I'm the Christ, but they can't tell anyone else. It's all secretive.

Now the WTS clearly knows about these other "secret" anointed ones, which they can't tell about because they don't partake. So they have their spies out trying to determine who is spiritually anointed. But Jehovah hides them, "away from the face of the serpent" so they can't be seen. That's just for those who choose to be or who must pretend to remain active Christians. Others of the anointed, like myself, though, are going in the complete opposite direction of appearing like the "anointed." A clear "chasm" is between those of the secret anointed and those of the public anointed. Part of what separates the two is that those in the secret anointed are not under Law. That means, God has granted that they cannot sin any more. Without law, there is no sin. So sometimes we are requested or required to show we understand this by committing what would have otherwise been a sin. This is part of helping us remain in secret. That may be anything from smoking and doing drugs, to engaging in fornication.

It works too. I've told close friends and relatives I'm the Christ, but they just laugh because most know I'm sexually active. So even if the prophecies make sense and they wonder about the chronology, they still won't think I fulfill those prophecies because they know me too well. How can I tell someone in person who knows me that I'm the Christ, but I can commit fornication if I want to, but they can't since it's still a sin for them? That's too much. So the "chasm" works. It keeps those in the secret world from crossing over to those in the public world:

Luke 16:26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.

It's all happening. It's all real. It's all prophesied!

229

How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

by mP in

theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

Larsinger58

The Law proided prophetic patterns that Christ fulfilled.

For instance, the unleavened bread at Passover time represented the sinless body of Christ at the first coming. The first wave offering of the firstfruits represented the aspects of the first coming, again, with emphasis on unleavened bread. As Christ said, the bread represented his body that was to be given in sacrifice, the wine his blood.

The second first fruits wave offering was at the time of Pentecost. Pentecost represents those things to be fulfilled at the second coming. Thus two loaves were waved at the second coming. This represented Christ and the anointed who are presented to Jehovah at the time of the second coming. But note the wave offering at Pentecost is of bread with leaven, regular loaves from the house. Again, bread represents the physical body of Christ. Thus the Law tells us that Christ would be in an imperfect body at the second coming.

Pentecost also represents the fulflilment of prophecy, the 1335 days. Christ arrives at the time of the Festival of Booths. This is another part of the Law. It represents God coming down to dwell with mankind via Jesus Christ. The booths represented details of how Christ would arrive. The house represented the temple, so the booths which were outside the house, represented that Christ would not arrive as a formal part of the temple, but outside that temple. Also, it represented that Christ would not be born in the house, but outside the house, where the animals were kept, in a booth. Thus Christ fulfilled this by being born in an animal shelter after which he was placed in a manger. So all of that was symbolic of how Christ arrives.

Now Christ dies in the middle of the week per prophecy. That is very specific. A week is seven days. When you apply the "day for a year" formula (Ezk 4:6), this represents a week of 7 years, with Christ dying precisely at 3.5 years. Christ dies specifically at the time of Passover; therefore, the 70th week must begin in the Fall, at the time of the Festival of Booths. Thus the FOB represents when Christ arrives and Passover the time he dies. From the last day of the Festival of Booths, which is a special sabbath, until the day before the special sabbath of the 21st of Passover, there are the symbolic 1290 days. Christ died on Nisan 20th, Thursday. There are 50 days to Pentecost from the sabbath of the 15th. Thus there are 45 days from the 20th to Pentecost. Thus Pentecost, fulfills the 1335 days, which is linked to the second coming.

When you substitute the "day for a year" formula, the 1335 days becomes the end of 1335 years. The 1290 days ends the gentile times and the end of Jewish exile on November 30, 1947. So 45 years later would mark the 2nd coming between November 30, 1992 and November 30, 1993. Thus the Law regarding Pentecost and the prophecy regarding the 1335 days are both connected. See how that works?

These are just examples of how the Law is fulfilled by Christ, as well as the prophecies, which are interconnected with the Law.

If you are chosen to understand these things and you are of the elect, then it all fits. But if you're not chosen to understand these things, then it might seem confusing; especially if you are insistent upon trying to find error. That's very dangerous, because to those with much, more will be given. That means that if God was going to perform some miracles, or say I, as the Christ would raise someone from the dead or cure someone, it would be secretive and for the elect to see, so they would believe even more. So basically, you don't know if some miracles are now happening or not, since they would be for the elect. Just like the "sign of the son of man" appears to the elect, and is understood by them, but not the world of Christendom in general. On the other hand, if you are resistant of scripture or think God is not real or the Bible is not true, then what God will do is take what you don't have and increase what you don't have. To those with nothing, even that will be taken away. That seems impossible, but not when you consider the negative side of numbers. Nothing is zero. But we do have the concept of a negative number, such as -9 or -15, etc. So this means, that if you come up doubting and trying to find some errors here and there, then instead of finding what you think are say 5 or 6 errors, Jehovah will show you 25 errors or 100 errors, so you will be more confident than ever in ignorance. That is, Jehovah doesn't let you just walk away. He casts you into darkness and then puts stumbling blocks in your way, so that you will stumble and then fall off a steep cliff.

It's the ALL OR NOTHING formula. You get eternal life, happiness and paradise or heaven on the one hand, or you get eternal death. Only when you come back on Judgment Day, you get to experience paradise and what the world of the righteous is like for a short while before dying the second death. Thus all the wicked see what they will be missing before they die. So in this way, Gehenna, which is the "second death" is described as a place of torment. It is a place of eternal torment, not because they are alive, but because they are in anguish just before death. We have a saying and a concept, therefore, of "rest in peace." Meaning someone lets go of their life and are at peace with themselves when they go. At the same time, there are many ghost movies out there that foster the idea that the spirits of the dead did not die in peace or had not finished something during their lives, so now their souls are restless and they have come back to haunt people. So we have that concept of resting and peace, or not being at peace when someone dies. So in that sense, dying in anguish is represented by eternal torment.

At this point in time, I've come to accept that many, many things will not be understood except by the elect. This is represented by the five wise virgins who brought along the extra oil not sharing that with the foolish virgins who did not. So there are definitely thouse who will have light who are deivided from those who don't and remain in darkness. Further, Jehovah's Day and thus Armageddon is described as a day of think gloom and darkness. This reflects what happened during Noah's Day at the time of the flood. There was originally a water canopy surrounding the earth which was solid, clear ice. So the world looked like it was under a glass bubble. When it was time for the flood, this ice was superheated and converted to thick rain clouds that would rain down for 40 days and 40 nights. Thus before the flood it was completely dark like it gets before a huge storm today. The sun is totally blocked out. So likely some torches or lamps were lit to be able to see just before the flood, but those were quickly extinguished once the heavy rains started. Those those people died in darkness. They understood what was happening, but they couldn't see anything. Same with Armageddon. Many will understand that Armageddon is happening and that people are dropping dead right and left, but they will wonder how this happened so suddenly or why the Law wasn't fulfilled or why Christ hasn't arrived yet and taken them up to heaven? In the meantime, the elect will know what to expect and will be seeing the fulfillment of Law and Prophecy.

49

Found a scripture where Jesus is clearly manipulating people

by cptkirk in

it's a scripture that is very well known (at least among witnesses) , relatively well known.

it is clearly manipulative, and the irony being that i've seen an elder use it for his own manipulative purposes as well....in a similar circumstance that jesus used it in.

when you look at it again, you may not have seen it this way, but you will now.. i am not trying to put jesus on trial here, simply trying to point out something that is very obvious, and yet most people probably never stepped back and realized what he was actually doing here.. it is mark 6. they are stumbling over jesus (spiritually stumbling), so did he say a prayer for their hearts to be opened?

Larsinger58

"Interpretation belongs to God."

When all is said and done, so much is messed up under Satan's rule that many things will not be resolved until JUDGMENT DAY.

31

I am in LOV.....I mean LIKE!!!

by MsGrowingGirl20 in

hi alll!

well, i'm good!.

i haven't been to the hall in like 5 months.

Larsinger58

Wonderful!

16

How Could Jesus Be A Perfect Human When...?

by OneStepOut93 in

how could jesus have been a perfect human on earth if he was born from mary?

doesn't thewatchtower believe since we are all sons and daughters of adam and eve, that we are all genetically imperfect?

so if mary also came from adam and eve like the rest of us but gave birth to jesus then wouldn't jesus have been born imperfectlike the rest of us?.

Larsinger58

More specifically, the WTS at one point claimed that the "life" of someone comes from the father, the sperm. Christ was born without a human father and thus did not inherit sin.

I did a little search and did not come up with a direct quote for this concept, so I'm not sure if they've backed away from that. What they seem to be saying now is that Jehovah could create a perfect human if he wishes, becoming the father of Christ as he was the father of Adam without the usual need for a human birth from a mother and father.

But perhaps they backed away from this as this would imply that the Nephillum, the children of rebel angels and humans might have been perfect, not inheriting Adamic sin. They were mortal, but still perfect and thus might have had an extended lifespan until God killed them.

Thus the question is valid whether or not an imperfect ovum from Mary would produce an impefect child. Maybe you need the father to be imperfect in order to produce transfer an imperfect life. This, of course, suggests that even though Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, that had Adam remained faithful, Eve still could have born him perfect children though she herself was imperfect after she ate of the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge.

But it is a moot point, as whatever it took, Jesus was born a perfect human, not one with inherited sin from Adam. Thus for his first coming he is represented by unfermented cakes, meaning his body was without sin, however God accomplished that. But the second time he comes, he is represented by a leavened loaf from the house, meaning he is not in a perfect body and his 2nd coming is not for the sake of a sacrifice, but for the sake of being a king. So the next time he appears, he is in an imperfect body, not needing to be born as an infant nor a perfect man. That is, he simply uses the body of one of his followers at the second coming, an imperfect man.

So that's an important point. He only had to be perfect the first time he arrived, but not the second.

Of course, God could have cured the ovum of imperfection before feretilizing it. He could have used the DNA from Mary after removing the imperfection. We just don't know. All we know is the result was a perfect human child.

Again, the WTS used to take the position that the "life" comes from the father and so Christ was born perfect, not having a human father. But that suggests that the children of the fallen angels were perfect. Apparently they thought about this because I did see a reference where they make it a very clear point that the angel Gabriel did not impregnate Mary. That is, no materialized angel had sex with her, which I guess might have produced a perfect human if the state of the father was the critical determining factor.

My interpretation leans now toward Jehovah removing the imperfection from Mary's ovum or just using the DNA from that ovum and placing it in a perfect one, creating a perfect child. Thus nothing was imperfect about Jesus, though he did share Mary's DNA, who was a descendant of king David. The second time he arrives, he must come through the line of Joseph, but he will be implanted into an imperfect body.

6

Separating the sheep between annointed, and non annointed

by wha happened? in

i was reading john 10:16. this scirpture ends with the statement.

one shepherd.

never put much thought into it.

Larsinger58

You know it is very hard to talk to XJWs because they have zero ability to think the WTS is recognized, even as a false prophet in the Bible. But in fact, the WTS is the "temple in its right condition" chosen sect that would operate even though infested with weeds until Christ arrived in 1992. "Let the wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest."

Having said that, the 11 hours of the vineyard work applies to them. That is, every hour is 7 years so we are talking about 77 years from 1914 to 1991. Thus you have a two-class system implied here. That is, the earliest workers hired knew in advance they would be paid the "penny" for a full day's work. From the third through the 11th hour workers, would be paid "whatever is fair." But it turns out the master wanted to be generous, so paying the last first and the first last, he gave EVERYBODY the penny.

So multiply when the third hour workers would be present. Three hours is 3 x 7 which is 21 years. Add 21 years to 1914 and you get 1935. Thus this parable applies to a unique situation with the JW org. That is, after 1935, there would be TWO CLASSES! Those that know in advance they will get the penny and those who think they will get less. So from 1935 through 1991, you have the "other sheep" who only have the earthly hope!

BUT... LOOK WHAT HAPPENS! When the master arrives, he starts to pay the workers and turns out he pays EVERYBODY THE PENNY. That means, for the alert "other sheep" they ALL get invited into the heavenly class! Thus there is only a two-class system from 1935-1991; or technically until Passover of 1993 (April 6). The workers are paid from the last to the first during the 12th hour or the "last hour" which is a 7-year period from 1991-1998.

Thus per the Bible, in reality, though there was a period where there were two classes, everything is evened out in the end when all the "other sheep", that is, the 3rd through 11th-hour workers are also given the "penny."

So the message here is: DON'T SUPERIMPOSE FALSE WTS DOCTRINE ON THE BIBLE. God invites ALL to be part of the kingdom is they are paying attention. He does let some know in advance they are of the heavenly class, and does not tell some they will be invited there, but once Christ arrives (12/25/1992) and after the first and last passover celebration (April 6, 1993), ALL are invited to have the penny, including the "other sheep" class vineyard workers (1935-1991).

Yes, ANOTHER false teaching by the WTS.

Now you can see in the parable that ALL get the penny. The WTS likes to feel persecuted by Christendom, so they think the first-hour workers are early Chistendom because they murmur against the 11th-hour workers. But the first-hour workers still get their penny. It is not taken away! So this is still part of the heavenly class. The WTS likes to think of themselves as coming into the work late, so they identify with the 11th-hour workers. Well fine. But ALL the workers get the penny! Who are the 3rd -9th hour workers who also get the penny? So you see, the WTS is in the dark and CLUELESS!

But ultimately, in response to the above, indeed, ALL at some point are invited into the heavenly class, but not all at the same time.

Now, since Christ arrived in 1992 and ended the Memorial celebration on April 6, 1993, all the new anointed out of the "other sheep" don't partake, nor should they. But some do. There are some marginals who end up partaking because they know they are of the anointed, but don't fully understand Christ arrived in 1992. That's fine. So even in the JW org, there has been a steady increase in partakers! This is sooo funny.

Now the "murmuring" of the 1st-hour workers has to do with this being such a surprise to them. The original anointed ones are surprised that the "other sheep" get to have the "penny" as well and are invited into the heavenly class. They think they should get more since they worked the longest, but they don't. They get what they deserve, which is the penny.

So that's what is really going on. God is not partial. In the end, EVERYBODY GETS INVITED to the heavenly class. But.. you have to be alert. Many fail to respond to the invitation and miss out.

So from 1993 through the end of the 12th hour, which is from 1991-1998, a special invitation to the "other sheep" was made to become part of the heavenly class and thus there is no 99% dysphoria involved as implied for the majority of JWs. Those paying attention got anointed into the heavenly class. From the last to the first.

XJWs, in the meantime, have to get over the significance of the WTS in Bible prophecy. They end up being the "evil slave" and the "man of lawlessness" but they are also the temple sect prophesied that would arrive after "2300 evenings and mornings." If you accept the WTS is the "evil slave" then you have to accept their special role as the temple sect -- it's just that simple. Many prophecies in the NT, therefore, apply specifically to them. Unfortunately, most are negative.