Fernando: But we can agree your calculation does not reflect what could or could not happen in the real world because it assumes the world is not governed by natural law?
Posts by bohm
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40The mathematical probability of spontaneous order (no designer/creator)
by Fernando inthere seem to be many prerequisites for life as we know it.. to name a few: order, function, compatibility, availability, sustainability, intelligence, consciousness, intuition and so on.. focusing on only one, namely order.. what are the chances of order arising spontaneously, by chance, with no creator/designer?.
i have often pondered this and recently came across a mathematical summary of the big picture:.
if every particle in the known physical universe (10^80 particles), participated in one trillion interactions (10^12 interactions) per second, for the entire 30 billion years of the universe's existence (10^18 seconds), then we would by now have covered only 10^110 permutations.. if you had only 100 components in a container, what are the chances that a blindfolded person could lay them out in order on a table?.
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40
The mathematical probability of spontaneous order (no designer/creator)
by Fernando inthere seem to be many prerequisites for life as we know it.. to name a few: order, function, compatibility, availability, sustainability, intelligence, consciousness, intuition and so on.. focusing on only one, namely order.. what are the chances of order arising spontaneously, by chance, with no creator/designer?.
i have often pondered this and recently came across a mathematical summary of the big picture:.
if every particle in the known physical universe (10^80 particles), participated in one trillion interactions (10^12 interactions) per second, for the entire 30 billion years of the universe's existence (10^18 seconds), then we would by now have covered only 10^110 permutations.. if you had only 100 components in a container, what are the chances that a blindfolded person could lay them out in order on a table?.
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bohm
Fernando:
Like I said, you are ignoring the laws of chemistry while trying to figure out what chemistry can do. That's the problem with your computation, it does not actually model any aspect of the real world.
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40
The mathematical probability of spontaneous order (no designer/creator)
by Fernando inthere seem to be many prerequisites for life as we know it.. to name a few: order, function, compatibility, availability, sustainability, intelligence, consciousness, intuition and so on.. focusing on only one, namely order.. what are the chances of order arising spontaneously, by chance, with no creator/designer?.
i have often pondered this and recently came across a mathematical summary of the big picture:.
if every particle in the known physical universe (10^80 particles), participated in one trillion interactions (10^12 interactions) per second, for the entire 30 billion years of the universe's existence (10^18 seconds), then we would by now have covered only 10^110 permutations.. if you had only 100 components in a container, what are the chances that a blindfolded person could lay them out in order on a table?.
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bohm
Fernando: What your calculations are missing are natural laws. You should ask yourself if for instance the laws governing organic chemistry are irrelevant when considering the origin of life; obviously no scientist would agree, but that is what you are assuming.
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7
The book of daniel and the five Akkadian prophecies
by bohm inthere are two views on the book of daniel.
according to the conservative jewish/christian view the book of daniel was written in mesopotamia under the babylonian conquest ca.
according to the view of modern history the book was composed ca.
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bohm
thanks, fulltimestudent. This stuff was totally new to me until yesterday. I don't get why this is not getting more attention given the important role many conservatives place on Daniels prophecy. -
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The book of daniel and the five Akkadian prophecies
by bohm inthere are two views on the book of daniel.
according to the conservative jewish/christian view the book of daniel was written in mesopotamia under the babylonian conquest ca.
according to the view of modern history the book was composed ca.
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bohm
There are two views on the book of Daniel. According to the conservative Jewish/Christian view the book of Daniel was written in Mesopotamia under the Babylonian conquest ca. 600BCE. According to the view of modern history the book was composed ca. 167BCE and the alleged prophecies in the book of Daniel are really examples of backdating where historical characters are “prophesied”.
Arguably, underlying the arguments for an early dating is the assumption people would be very unlikely to make up a prophecy after the fact, and people would be unlikely to believe and promulgate such a prophecy. This assumption is commonly seen in arguments along the form: “it is simply assumed due to a naturalistic bias that Daniel must be written after the events it describes”.
I clearly don’t think this is the case, however there are ways to test the view the book of Daniel is a later invention: If this is the case I would assume there should be other examples in the region of other such back-dated prophecies. I tried to test this prediction using some simple googling and was richly rewarded. Here is the general outline:
There are currently five prophecies from ancient Mesopotamia known as the Akkadian prophecies (the Uruk prophecy, the dynastic prophecy, the Shulgi prophecy, Marduk prophecy and Text A).
As Daniel they are all written as prophecies about the future using phrases such as “A king shall arise..”, they all describe the reign of future, unnamed kings, the kings can be identified (and clearly point to) historical kings by the reference to various events ascribed to the kings. For instance the dynastic prophecy predict the rise and fall of Babylon and Assyria (like Daniel), the rise of the Hellenistic monarchies and Alexander the great (like Daniel) and then part way with history by making a false prediction (that Darius would be victories over Alexander).
The prophecies attempt to lend credibility to their claims of the future by their “correct” predictions, for instance the Uruk prophecy, after gaining credibility by a series of “correct” prophecies, predict a son of Nebuchadnezzar II will rule the world forever (compare to Daniel).
Clearly a conservative Christian would reject the historicity of the Akkadian texts. Why? What I find significant is the motif of re-casting historical events as prophecies of the future to lend credibility to a claim that is truly in the future was a well-known genre element in the region when the bible was composed. Even on a superficial level the existence of many such texts mean the probability point to Daniel too not being a prophecy about the future – even without considering such a prophecy would break the natural laws. The additional arguments for Daniel should be seen in this light. For instance the reference of Josephus ca. 90CE to Daniel is sometimes used as evidence – does that mean a Babylonian reference much later than the fact too would be considered sufficient evidence for e.g. the Uruk prophecy?
sources:
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70
Wife fully awake.
by cappytan ini learned this past week that my wife is now awake.
i just shared the pbs newshour segment with her with no comment other than something along the lines of, "jw story on pbs.".
she is furious at the arrogance of these men.. thats what happens when you get a momma angry!.
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bohm
Missed this thread, this is awesome. Congratulations to both of you. -
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Confusion over the parable of the prodigal son
by economy inthough parable of prodigal son is superlative in quality as it graphically picturizes the scientific law of cause and consequence, its conclusion defames god.
when the prodigal son returned repentant, his father showed his delight saying: let us celebrate this by killing a fattened calf.
(luke 15:23) such a concept (let us rejoice by giving maximum pain to another innocent living being) seems to be interpolation for the following reason:.
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bohm
Buddah, vegatarianism, a spiritual outlook that is critical of the bible..
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The desert god is a real A hole in this weeks bible reading
by _Morpheus inso this week dubbies read that the mean bad philistines were punished by the desert god for having his ark.
the desert god punished them with (drum roll please)....... hemroids and rats.
yep.
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bohm
Actually the bible would instantly improve if they replaced 1&2 samuel with the plot of game of thrones..
Do they actually say hemoroids at the kingdom hall? Is there some sort of explanation or is it just presented as "facts of life"?
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The desert god is a real A hole in this weeks bible reading
by _Morpheus inso this week dubbies read that the mean bad philistines were punished by the desert god for having his ark.
the desert god punished them with (drum roll please)....... hemroids and rats.
yep.
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bohm
Here is an explanation: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/touch_ark.htm
Since God's presence was on/over the ark, they were actually coming into the presence of God - and without the least sense of reverence towards him, since they decided to poke around and play with his throne! Is it any wonder they died?
I imagine the author was choosing between this explanation and "BECAUSE REASONS!".
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The desert god is a real A hole in this weeks bible reading
by _Morpheus inso this week dubbies read that the mean bad philistines were punished by the desert god for having his ark.
the desert god punished them with (drum roll please)....... hemroids and rats.
yep.
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bohm
You got to admire the curiosity of the ancient jews. It must have been a fairly sizeable pile of bodies that had to be climbed near the end of it in order to look into the ark.