Well if they'll disfellowship children and their parents for telling the truth about a molester, and call it slander, then the only fitting punishment for Brown would have to be public stoning, wouldn't it?
Posts by Hmmm
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Hmmm
If Barbara was disfellowshipped because of causing divisions, the Apostle Paul should have been disfellowshipped for causing divisions among the flock because he publicized sensational sexual immorality in the Corinthian congregation. Not only did he discuss with the Corinthian Congregation how he felt about the congregation hiding fornication in their midst, he recorded his accusations for millions of people to read in the Bible during the past 2,000 years. Why is it okay for Paul to have gone public revealing disgraceful conduct that was being condoned in the congregation, but when my wife goes public about the organization condoning and protecting immoral people by bad policies, she is punished?
Great point, and not one that I've heard made before.
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Dacke re: 01Jul89 BOE Letter - Is the Policy Sound
by outnfree indacke,.
i understand your deep desire to believe what you see in print from the wt society.
but whatever it takes, it is important that the child should feel confident that the molester will never be able to get at her (or him) again.
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Hmmm
outnfree, that was a great post.
It's sad to see the society trying to take a high road about being [overly] sensitive about "rights" when they openly threaten lawsuits if a life-saving blood transfusion is forced upon Witnesses. The society threatens and encourages lawsuits if a well-meaning doctor gives a transfusion, and holds up such lawsuits as examples of ways for Witnesses to protect their "rights". But when a young boy or girl is molested and the crime is covered over by the society and local elders, it's suddenly wrong for the victims to be overly concerned with "rights"?
Dacke,
The society here and in other writings on the matter, makes it very clear (by what is NOT said, if nothing else) that in states where reporting is not mandatory, the elders are NOT to report. They make it painfully obvious that elders are only to report if it is required by law.
Dacke: If the elder feels there's not enough to go on, he cannot be forced to pass an allegation to the local authorities.
Out: "- In those states where there ARE clergy reporting laws, WHY would the elders call the Societys Legal Department immediately? Why wouldnt they contact police FIRST, and then notify the Societys Legal Department (and Service Dept. for that matter)? "
Dacke: Because the elder's may feel that there's not enough to go on to make a report to the Police, but it might be a legal requirement and in such case, the Legal Desk's job is to be up to date on the law and inform the elder of this.
And you say that outnfree is reading things into the letter that weren't there? You are rationalizing to the extreme to say that the elders feeling that they have enough to go on ever enters into the decision-making process.
The society only entertains two possibilities: 1) It's a reporting state, so you have to report it; 2) It's a non-mandatory-reporting state, so don't report. There is no third option 3) It is not a mandatory reporting state, but there is "enough to go on" so you should report it, and let the professionals take over.
Besides, what would be considered enough to go on? If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that, to the society, this means two eye-witnesses to the same crime, or a confession. Even a dozen separate victims coming forward is not considered enough to go on.
[Edit: at least, not at the time of this letter, subsequent articles, or any time prior to their horribly inadequate policy being exposed to the world]
Also, what is there to be 'up to date' on? Either you live in a reporting state, or you dont. If you live in a reporting state, then report. Period. No need to call WT legal so they can tell you to "just walk away. Don't get youself in a jam" protecting a little child.
It's the other way around, if anything. There's a Data Protection Act in effect in Europe which states how private information is to be handled.
The Data Protection Act is designed to protect the person about whom information might be stored. It is not meant to allow two parties to enter into an environment where one of them is being judged, and only allow the judging party to keep notes!
So much head-burying going on here. Do you have any clue how far youre reaching, to support Mother? The abuse claims MIGHT not be true, but MAYBE one day they actually MIGHT be abused, so lets not go to the authorities, ever, because we have to protect the .000001% who MIGHT cry wolf then actually get molested??? How often do you think such a situation would arise, that it justifies leaving all of the legitimate abuse victims out in the cold?Out: Wouldnt the moral thing be to contact the professionals both social workers and law enforcement officials RIGHT AWAY so that evidence can be collected and aid rendered to the innocent victim of abuse? "
Dacke: I hate to say this, but it might turn out that the abuse had never occurred, and when that child is one day actually abused, nobody will believe them because they lied before. Also, due to the nature of humans, the innocent accused may be branded a child molester anyway (by JW's or none JW's, gossip / word gets around / who wants to take any risks)
Flabbergasted,
Hmmm
Edited by - hmmm on 19 July 2002 18:9:13
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Opinions Please on Family Letter
by patio34 ini sent the following to my jw son today and, of course, i'm antsy about his reaction.
i love you, jw son, and from 28 years of being a jw, understand completely your religious views.
this is my decision and reasons for it.
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Hmmm
Pat,
One thing you haven't told us: What does your daughter, &&&&, think of all this?
Hmmm
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Letter of disassociation to my JW family
by Larry ingreetings - would some one please confirm that the aug 2002 km has the article entitled "display christian loyalty when a relative is disfellowshipped" i want to be accurate with my quotes in this letter.
speaking of which, i'm sending the below letter to my jw family - if you have time please let me know your thoughts -thanks - larry :).
to all my practicing jehovah witness family members:.
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Hmmm
Blackman!
Haven't seen you around these parts in a while.
I have no idea what you've gone through with your family, but I would try to leave the door open for them to come to their senses.
I would try to avoid extreme statements like "never call me again." My message would be "you can't dance in and out of my life on your terms, but once you guys open your eyes, I'll welcome you on mine."
Just my take. Good to see you posting again.
Hmmm
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Opinions Please on Family Letter
by patio34 ini sent the following to my jw son today and, of course, i'm antsy about his reaction.
i love you, jw son, and from 28 years of being a jw, understand completely your religious views.
this is my decision and reasons for it.
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Hmmm
Pat,
I'm not going to quote you, because it seems that red type is like Scarlet Fever... you can't get rid of it, you can only let it run its course.
Anyway. I meant to mention earlier; did you plan the family picnic because of Hank's visit, or for other family members? If the picnic was not specifically in Hank's honor, I would consider having it anyway. Otherwise, his hardline stance is still causing a family fuction to be cancelled. If Hank is the only person visiting from out of town, and the picnic was basically for everyone to see him, then I think you made the right decision.
Hmmm
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KLUTZ!
by peaceloveharmony ini'm such a klutz!
today at work, i had pulled open my top drawer of a 5drawer filing cabinet.
sitting in my chair it's right about forehead height.
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Hmmm
So let me get this straight... you're going to a softball game with a softball-sized bump on your forehead?
Methinks we'll be reading about a batting practice accident tomorrow.
Glad you're in good spirits about it, Mony.
Hmmm
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Opinions Please on Family Letter
by patio34 ini sent the following to my jw son today and, of course, i'm antsy about his reaction.
i love you, jw son, and from 28 years of being a jw, understand completely your religious views.
this is my decision and reasons for it.
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Hmmm
Patio,
I think I would have verified that he'll hold that position. Then again, if **** (what kind of mother would name her child a grammatical symbol?) has been DFd for a while, you may already know exactly how ***** (not once, but twice!) is going to treat him.
If there is any chance that ***** would not be rude to ****, I'd give them the chance to say so. You never know when they'll have a change of heart. But if they've already confirmed that (through phone conversations, etc...) then that email was perfect. Polite, but very firm about what you'll not allow in your home, and how you'll not allow **** to be treated in his.
Great job. I want you to be my ghost writer when dealing with my family.
Hmmm
Edited by - hmmm on 18 July 2002 18:10:44
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Why SILENTLAMBS *MUST* be Judicially Crucified.
by Focus inwhy silentlambs *must* be judicially crucified (watchtower's reasoning) .
many have stated how dumb the wtbts must be for arranging the judicial execution of bowen, given what the international media can do (and i sincerely hope *will* do) with the story of what the "society of the mentally-ill or perverted" in brooklyn did to the person who tried to save children from brutal and repeated rape.. actually, they had no real choice.
their real stupidity (and of course organizational criminality) was ever letting the scandal get to this stage, and we here should all know the mindset that made that happen.. given the position today, they *have* to judicially murder (the actual sentence to be executed by their crazed killer-god jehooooobah, note) - not because to "let him off" would signal more rebellions from those only held in by fear, but because the only way they can discredit bill is by calling him a disgruntled, ex-jw apostate.
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Hmmm
The big difference is that prior to Al Gore inventing the Internet, someone like Bill Bowen could be given the boot, and his voice would effectively be muted. Some, like Carl Olaf Johnson and Ray Franz, published books and reached moderate readership, but in matters of immediate urgency, like the current pedophile catastrophe, a significant groundswell of public interest/outrage could not be generated, because it was too tough to get the information out there.
With global information dissemination the reality today, people like Bill can be heard, and efforts can be coordinated so that large media organizations will pick up these stories. The lone crusader no longer has to go it alone against a worldwide publishing empire. He has the opportunity to spread his voice as wide as--and more effectively than--the Watchtower.
There was never any doubt that Bill Bowen would be disfellowshipped for the egregious sin of telling the truth and putting children above the WT's mythical reputation. What I think the Watchtower will learn (already has learned with sites like Randy's and Kent's) is that it will be impossible to shut him up as effectively as dissenters of the past.
Imagine what would have happened if the Internet made the public and R&F dubs aware of what was really going on behind the scenes in the organization after Russell died. There might be six million Christmas-celebrating, chain-smoking Russellites printing magazines and pointing to the few thousand disgruntled Rutherfordians as the Evil Slave Class.
Hmmm
Oops. Focus posted the same thing in another thread.
Edited by - hmmm on 18 July 2002 15:41:39
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So What Was A Cause For Stumbling For You, Then?
by Englishman ini recall vividly my teenage years when i was the eldest son of a colourful po.
until you have spent several days residing at the home of the po of a large congregation, you can have no idea what sagas and dramas are played out day after day by the publishers in many congregations.. publishers, ms's, elders, they all want the ear of the po.
in effect, many publishers become totally unable to make even the smallest decision without first of all contacting the po.
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Hmmm
Good post, Eman.
I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that ye olde "I've been stumbled" claim is only dragged out to impose one's will on others. "Do things my way, or I'll say you stumbled me."
I've even known it happen that a male has asked the PO to view the ministry record card of a sister, prior to him proposing marriage.
In my area in the early '90s, brothers and sisters talking to the PO about a prospective mate's service time and meeting attendance almost became the norm. It was like going on a job interview!
Hmmm