Wendy,
Congratulations on standing your ground! Yes, you have changed, you've gotten even better!
The term "mommy" was never more apt or better-deserved.
Gopher
Posts by Gopher
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by bonnie38 ini have been browsing this site for a short time, and i have found it very inteteresting.
my personal story is lengthy, so i will not bore you with it at this time.
this is my dilemma: i was disfellowshipped four years ago.
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Gopher
Hi Bonnie.
Your story reminded me of one of Jesus' parables. It was the one about 2 men praying. One was the Pharisee, "Oh God, I fast, I give the tenth of everything, and I'm not like that sinful tax collector over there." The other was the tax collector, unwilling to even look skyward, saying "Oh God, be gracious to me, a sinner".
Jesus said the "sinner", the so-called "worthless one" went home as one proved more righteous than the Pharisee.
Like the Pharisee, the JW's (through the man-made harsh rule of shunning) treat you as worthless. What's important though is God's view of matters.
The elders who ruthlessly dismissed you from the organization were operating at man's level. They can disfellowship you from an organization, but they can NEVER disfellowship you from God. Only you have that decision -- of fellowship with God.
You are so worthy of commendation, I just cannot tell you. Welcome to the board and I look forward to more of your posts.
Gopher
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Have I changed?
by mommy inas most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.
therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.
when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.
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Gopher
Wendy,
You haven't changed, except for becoming more perceptive. The forum has grown rapidly, so the atmosphere out here has changed somewhat. It can still be a wonderful place for new people to come and seek support, as long as they don't come here pointing accusing fingers in their very first post, for God's sake.
Nobody can possibly respond to all posts, who has the time now? That's with the possible exception of Fred Hall, who unlike you Wendy, will never change and grow.
So we can use discernment, jump in only when we feel comfortable, at what feels like the right time, and share our two cents worth. Hopefully people will be able to express their heartfelt ideas and differences, without being flamed or sneered at by holier-than-thou posters.
Gopher
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SMILE
by Gopher ini found this old favorite song of mine.
take it for what it's worth.
a day-brightener, yes, a cure-all, no.. this beautiful song was used as background music in one of charlie chaplin's silent pictures over 70 years ago, which i believe was called "modern times".
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Gopher
Seven,
Thanks for posting the "Wonderful World" lyrics.
Kismet,
Can you make that "two men's opinion?". I just love hearing old Satchmo croon that tune!
Gopher
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The eventuality of man is the same as animals
by OlderTom inwas it ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other.
or something like that.. man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay.
what sins have animals committed?
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Gopher
Stephen,
Thanks for bringing in the Guzik commentary. He brings a lot of interesting ideas to the discussion.
Openminded,
I believe Adam and Eve were familiar with the concept of death. They saw animals being born and dying all the time in Eden.
You're right they didn't die that day. "Death" and/or "that day" may not be literal. Stephen said they died in a spiritual sense. Much like when you unplug a table fan, it keeps whirring, but the motion is slowly dying. The first couple began to die when they unplugged themselves from God's arrangement.
I agree that the "original sin" teaching does provide some people with reasons why they do bone-headed things. Hopefully they don't use that teaching as a crutch. "Oh well, I just can't help it." Sure they can't, but perhaps they could "try".
What was the point of testing Adam? Probably just to help him appreciate a principle. The principle being, recognize your Creator as your director in life. Stay inside your Creator's boundaries, and you can enjoy a great deal of happiness and even freedom. I don't think God actually enjoyed putting Adam and Eve to death. But that's only my opinion.
As far as the "sword". Great question. I thought that was a later human invention. Um, er, um.....
Gopher
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SMILE
by Gopher ini found this old favorite song of mine.
take it for what it's worth.
a day-brightener, yes, a cure-all, no.. this beautiful song was used as background music in one of charlie chaplin's silent pictures over 70 years ago, which i believe was called "modern times".
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Gopher
Emyrose,
Very well stated. I hope you can see light at the end of your tunnel fairly soon. Please feel free to share whatever you wish to share. There are plenty of understanding folks out here.
Gopher
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The eventuality of man is the same as animals
by OlderTom inwas it ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other.
or something like that.. man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay.
what sins have animals committed?
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Gopher
I was hoping for differing views to come through on this thread. It would be nice to have something to chew on, to learn from!
Stephen, my thoughts:
You pointed to the need to "figure out how man is in God's image". I would say that of all earthly creatures, man has the most advanced combination of capacity for love (though much of that capacity is sadly unused), wisdom and justice. Humankind alone can plan for the distant future. So not physically, but spiritually/mentally, man has the greatest capacity to reflect the Creator's qualities.
You said "Adam was never promised eternity in the flesh". Technically that is true, we never read of an outright promise. The idea of eternity can be deduced from 2 lines of reasoning, (1) God's love. The passage first quoted by Older Tom from Ecclesiastes also later says the "God put eternity into men's hearts." We all know what eternity is, and many reasonable people would agree that eternity is something the majority of mankind would want to have. That being the case, would a loving God "tease" mankind with a concept that they could never attain? (2) Death was only mentioned as a punishment. Only upon eating from the solitary "tree of knowledge" would they die. Death was never explicitly mentioned as an end for the first couple.
Not being dogmatic -- just what I think so far.
Gopher (editted to change a pronoun to make more sense)
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The eventuality of man is the same as animals
by OlderTom inwas it ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other.
or something like that.. man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay.
what sins have animals committed?
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Gopher
Older Tom,
I was just "testing the waters", weighing in with my thoughts. No I have not been an active JW for over 1 year. I am forming my thoughts and values system, and with that I my take some of what I had learned previously, or I may also choose to discard some of what I was taught in the WTS.
Does "freedom" around here mean you have to throw away EVERYTHING you learned before? Or just those elements that didn't make sense?
Tom, the part of your post I was trying to reply to was the last question, "Why should man be any different?" My answer emphasized man's possibility of a relationship with his Creator, which possibility does not exist with animals.
I think my answer meets the criteria of "simplicity" you seek. So I guess I don't understand your objection, if you still have one.
But thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is a good topic.
Gopher
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The eventuality of man is the same as animals
by OlderTom inwas it ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other.
or something like that.. man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay.
what sins have animals committed?
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Gopher
The main point of Ecclesiastes was to emphasize the unfruitfulness of a life separated from God.
So if one lives without God, their life is "vanity" according to Solomon.
With a disconnection from God, they are viewed to have as much chance of gaining God's gift of everlasting life as do the animals.
I'm guessing that animals die because they were not made in God's image, so weren't meant to live for eternity. Whereas man, in God's image, yearns for eternity.
Gopher
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SMILE
by Gopher ini found this old favorite song of mine.
take it for what it's worth.
a day-brightener, yes, a cure-all, no.. this beautiful song was used as background music in one of charlie chaplin's silent pictures over 70 years ago, which i believe was called "modern times".
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Gopher
I found this old favorite song of mine. Take it for what it's worth. A day-brightener, yes, a cure-all, no.
This beautiful song was used as background music in one of Charlie Chaplin's silent pictures over 70 years ago, which I believe was called "Modern Times". The song is called "Smile",and its melody is still recognized by many today.
Here are the lyrics:
SMILE by Chaplin, Parsons and Phillips
Smile, though your heart is aching.
Smile, even though it's breaking.
Though there are clouds in the sky,
You'll get by...If you smile through your fears and sorrows.
Smile and maybe tomorrow.
You'll see the sun come shining through.If you just light up your face with gladness,
Hide every trace of sadness.
Although a tear may be ever, ever so near.That's the time you must keep on trying.
Smile, what's the use of crying?
You'll find life is still worthwhile
If you'll just smile, come on and smile.If you just smile.