I started a thread where some of these questions are being discussed.
Posts by DT
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9I was Baptized in 1960 , with the changes over the years to the wording of baptismal candidates,does that make my baptism invalid ?
by smiddy ini would appreciate your thoughts on the matter and if any could provide legal ?
precedents / obligatory requirements from either parties , how binding , or what sanctions can be imposed on a violater of said baptism .. your thoughts/comments appreciated.
smiddy.
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9
I was Baptized in 1960 , with the changes over the years to the wording of baptismal candidates,does that make my baptism invalid ?
by smiddy ini would appreciate your thoughts on the matter and if any could provide legal ?
precedents / obligatory requirements from either parties , how binding , or what sanctions can be imposed on a violater of said baptism .. your thoughts/comments appreciated.
smiddy.
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DT
My opinion is that your baptism was a private arrangement between you and God. (I'll assume God exists to make things easier.) No third part can alter that arrangement or force themselves into it.
The change in baptism questions could be viewed as changing the conditions of membership in the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. It can be argued that you agreed to the changes by not objecting to them, assuming you kept going to meetings.
I think this is a very week argument, but the fact that it can be made could be enough to prevent a court from even investigating a case in countries like the United States due to reluctance to interfere in internal religious matters.
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Possible Reasons For The Faithful And Discreet Slave Change
by DT ini've been thinking a lot about the new faithful and discreet slave understanding.. first of all, i regard the faithful and discreet slave doctrine to be the core doctrine of jehovah's witnesses.
without a single charismatic leader like other cults, the watchtower society needed to have something to keep the rank and file in line.
the fds doctrine was mysterious and served to give the organisation a leadership structure that appeared to be directly connected to god.
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DT
"so how did that work (i wasnt aroundback then) did they just announce "if anyone isnt cool with this change, nows your chance to walk away"?"
No, it was all very sneaky. Hardly anybody noticed the change, even though it was pretty profound. Previously, the questions involved making an unreserved dedication to God. In 1985 it changed to becoming associated with God's spirit directed organization. This made it easier to argue that the person agreed to live by the rules of the religion including disfellowshipping and shunning, even if the only agreement was not objecting to the new questions.
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Possible Reasons For The Faithful And Discreet Slave Change
by DT ini've been thinking a lot about the new faithful and discreet slave understanding.. first of all, i regard the faithful and discreet slave doctrine to be the core doctrine of jehovah's witnesses.
without a single charismatic leader like other cults, the watchtower society needed to have something to keep the rank and file in line.
the fds doctrine was mysterious and served to give the organisation a leadership structure that appeared to be directly connected to god.
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DT
Suppose you are a fader and prepared a document like this. I wonder what the elders would do if they ever tried to form a judicial committee against you and you claimed that you had proof that you were not a Jehovah's Witness and any further action on their part would be illegal.
I hereby dissolve my association with the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses. This is in response to a coup within the organization where a small group of men who call themselves the "Governing Body" have claimed complete leadership of the organization. Previously, it had been a doctrine of the religion that a group of thousands of spirit anointed Christians were leading the organization and providing spiritual food at the proper time.
If my previous association with Jehovah's Witnesses can be viewed as acceptance of the earlier arrangement, the fact that I have discontinued attending church meetings and participation in their ministry should be seen as evidence that I reject this change in leadership that alters the actual nature and identity of the religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
I will not imply that Jehovah's Witnesses now have any legitimate leaders or representatives by submitting this letter to any of those who claim an official position within that organization. My refusal to participate in church activities should be sufficient to show that I am no longer associated with Jehovah's Witnesses.
As an added precaution, I will have this letter signed and dated by witnesses as proof of my feelings on the matter. I will then have it as proof of the date when I ceased being a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. This should help protect me if members of that religion harrass me in the future.
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Possible Reasons For The Faithful And Discreet Slave Change
by DT ini've been thinking a lot about the new faithful and discreet slave understanding.. first of all, i regard the faithful and discreet slave doctrine to be the core doctrine of jehovah's witnesses.
without a single charismatic leader like other cults, the watchtower society needed to have something to keep the rank and file in line.
the fds doctrine was mysterious and served to give the organisation a leadership structure that appeared to be directly connected to god.
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DT
Here is a thought.
Remember when the baptism questions where changed in 1985? It has been argued that was a change in the conditions of membership and you could reject the changes by no longer attending meetings. I've heard that there are some that haven't been to meetings since then that are basically immune from disfellowshipping. If the Watchtower Society tried to take any action against those people, they could possibly be sued for taking action against nonmembers. I know the Mormons have gotten into trouble for trying to excommunicate people who had already resigned.
Could this be a similar situation? This is a change in a core doctrine that changes the power structure of the organization. It could even be viewed as a coup that has changed the actual nature and identity of the religion. The one baptism question asks if you acknowledge that you will be associated with God's spirit directed organization. I'm sure the wording of that question will stay the same, but the meaning is now completely different. It has changed from God's spirit working through the anointed to God's spirit only working through the Governing Body. A person who implied acceptance of the first arrangement by baptism wouldn't be under any obligation to accept the change and could indicate this be no longer going to meetings.
Since there is already a large group who have faded and failed to show acceptance of this new arrangement, the Watchtower Society could find themselves in a difficult legal position if they try to take any judicial action against them.
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Possible Reasons For The Faithful And Discreet Slave Change
by DT ini've been thinking a lot about the new faithful and discreet slave understanding.. first of all, i regard the faithful and discreet slave doctrine to be the core doctrine of jehovah's witnesses.
without a single charismatic leader like other cults, the watchtower society needed to have something to keep the rank and file in line.
the fds doctrine was mysterious and served to give the organisation a leadership structure that appeared to be directly connected to god.
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DT
I've been thinking a lot about the new Faithful and Discreet Slave understanding.
First of all, I regard the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine to be the core doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses. Without a single charismatic leader like other cults, the Watchtower Society needed to have something to keep the rank and file in line. The FDS doctrine was mysterious and served to give the organisation a leadership structure that appeared to be directly connected to God. It went unquestioned by most Jehovah's Witnesses.
It was even used as the main test for apostasy. Many accused of apostasy were asked if they believed that the FDS was being used by God to lead the organization. Answering in the negative would almost guarantee disfellowshipping, while a convincing answer in the affirmative meant that any other source of "confusion" could possibly be handled without disfellowshipping.
It's odd that they would radically alter the doctrine that they were most concerned about their followers accepting.
I thought I would provide my own speculation on why they may have felt they needed to make this change.
The newly anointed were becoming a problem. The increasing numbers were an embarrassment. Also, an anointed apostate could potentially be far more damaging than a regular apostate.
There is also the factor that many newly anointed appear to be either mentally unstable, dishonest or overly ambitious. If it ever became routine to question the legitimacy of these newly anointed, it could lead to questioning the legitimacy of the entire FDS concept.
I'm sure the Governing Body felt it was necessary to open the doors again to the anointed class to have a larger pool of candidates to serve on the Governing Body. They just might not have anticipated all the problems and embarrassment that this would cause.
A bigger pool of potential candidates isn't very helpful if most of them are mentally unstable, dishonest or overly ambitious. I expect that some of those in power (perhaps non Governing Body members operating behind the scenes) realized that a cult cannot survive without competent leadership. The current GB are a bunch of clowns who have been making one embarrassing mistake after another. There is simply too much money involved in the organization for this trend to continue indefinitely.
The Governing Body might also be concerned about a coup led by rival anointed ones.
If my understanding of the new understanding is correct, the new FDS is tied to an organizational arrangement rather than individuals. Individuals only make up the FDS when they are participating in that organizational arrangement. This strips the anointed of any specialness while they are on earth. The organization becomes more clearly the idol that Jehovah's Witnesses worship.
This reduces the chances of a rival faction of anointed breaking away and confusing the followers. It also opens up the possibility of members of the great crowd serving on the Governing Body. Perhaps this is why they have been slow to appoint new GB members in recent years. They may soon have many more people to choose from.
It could also be the case that certain members of the GB would at least like to have the option of fleeing to a country that doesn't extradite to the United States. This would be easier if they can leave members of the great crowd in charge (perhaps people they can trust to keep their seats warm if they decide to return later).
Well, this is just my speculation for now. I welcome your thoughts.
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We will decide who is a predator! New Watchtower Instructions to Elders on Child Abuse
by Jaime l de Aragon inmust read on jehovahs witnesses watchtower arrogance in failure to warn of congregation pedophiles.. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/we-will-decide-who-is-a-predator-new-watchtower-instructions-to-elders-on-child-abuse?fb_action_ids=10151270345663993&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582.
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DT
I doubt that the Society is going to be labeling many people as predators. If it turns out that they are ignoring the elders' guidelines for staying away from children, I think it is more likely that they will direct the elders to disfellowship them for "brazen conduct" without letting any parents know of the danger.
That may solve the immediate problem, but some of them will probably get reinstated and the congregation will still be unaware of the danger.
This new policy just makes it look like they are willing to inform parents, even if it never happens.
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Apostasy Trial - Part 6 It's finally all online...
by RayPublisher inthe entire saga, all 3 hours are now online.
this last one took hours and hours to edit and i am so glad it is done.
(although i still have the behind the scenes footage to put up on how i did the hidden camera lol!
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DT
It appears to me that the decision to disfellowship you wasn't difficult. They just had a hard time deciding how to tell you in a way that made them feel good about themselves.
It appears that they thought they got it figured out, but you demolished their confidence with your comments and prayer at the end.
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My Baptism Story
by DT ini have been thinking about how the events surrounding my baptism may be of some interest to this board, so here is my story.. i began to talk about baptism when i was seven, but nobody took me seriously.
i let the matter drop until i was ten.
i was persistent this time so arrangements were made for the elders to go over the questions with me.. at the time, it was customary for baptismal candidates to study the live forever and united in worship books.
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DT
"Someone dropped the ball on letting you know you qualified. When you got into trouble you could have mentioned your baptism was probably not valid.
You willfully disassociated yourself or did you get disfellowshipped?"
Yes, it was a lot of extra stress for an event that was supposed to be positive. It sounded like they were just busy and left this task for the last minute.
I willfully disassociated, partly because I still believed in God and thought he would be displeased if I made a mockery of my dedication by remaining a JW. I don't regret the decision, even though my beliefs have changed since then.
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My Baptism Story
by DT ini have been thinking about how the events surrounding my baptism may be of some interest to this board, so here is my story.. i began to talk about baptism when i was seven, but nobody took me seriously.
i let the matter drop until i was ten.
i was persistent this time so arrangements were made for the elders to go over the questions with me.. at the time, it was customary for baptismal candidates to study the live forever and united in worship books.
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DT
I have been thinking about how the events surrounding my baptism may be of some interest to this board, so here is my story.
I began to talk about baptism when I was seven, but nobody took me seriously. I let the matter drop until I was ten. I was persistent this time so arrangements were made for the elders to go over the questions with me.
At the time, it was customary for baptismal candidates to study the Live Forever and United In Worship books. I already studied these in a haphazard manner at the book studies, but it was suggested that I go over them again. I did this on my own, underlining the few chapters that I missed when preparing for the book studies.
I found the question sessions with the elders to be pretty easy, with the exception of one question that caught me off guard. It had something to do with if I had already dedicated my life to God in prayer. I hadn't done this formally at a specific time. I mentioned in my prayers that this was my desire and I felt that God and I had an understanding. I thought that the baptism would seal the deal. I told the elder that I misunderstood the exact procedure and would perform that ritual soon. (It occurs to me now that they never followed up to see if this actually happened.)
That night I offered up my dedication prayer. I don't remember all the details, but I specifically remember promising that I would never be part of an organization that commits spiritual fornication. I think the Watchtower must have been focusing on that issue around that time.
When the question sessions were over, the elders said they would meet and let me know if they decided I was qualified for baptism.
The day for the circuit assembly arrived and I still didn't have an answer. When I talked to an elder, I was told that they still had to discuss it. The program started and I still didn't know if I could get baptized. I kept looking for an elder to give me an answer. Eventually the baptism talk started and there was an announcement that all baptism candidates should be seated in the assigned section. It was getting serious. It could be several months before the next assembly and what if Armageddon happened first? I was at that awkward age when I couldn't be sure if I would survive unless I was baptized.
My mom knew that one of the elders was working in the first aid department, so she suggested I go there to find out. When I opened the door to the first aid department I was greeted with a bare breasted mother nursing her child!
I left in embarrassment and returned to my seat and told my mom about this unexpected obstacle. She told me that the first aid department and the nursing mothers section were sharing the same room. She told me to look immediately to my left when I entered the room and then take the first door to the left.
I did this with my hand shielding my face to prevent another embarrassing incident. I then learned that I could, in fact, get baptized. I also learned that a partition was expected that would divide the room into two sections. In the meantime, everybody was trying to make do with the current "theocratic arrangement".
I quickly found a seat for the remainder of the baptism talk and answered the two pre1985 questions that didn't involve being baptized into an organization.
After getting into my swimming trunks, I had to go down some long and narrow hallways and eventually came to a small pool in an utility room. It wasn't a very public expression of my dedication since it was only witnessed by one person who actually knew me, my mom.
And that was that. I was now qualified to conduct meetings for field service and direct car groups and did so on a regular basis because I was in a small congregation. The older sisters in the congregation had to submit to another bizarre "theocratic arrangement" that involved a preteen directing their actions in the ministry.
I may have forgotten about the details of my dedication prayer if it weren't for the strange and stressful events that happened before I was baptized. However, this came vividly back to my mind when I learned about the Watchtower association with the United Nations as an NGO for almost ten years. This was blatent spiritual fornication according to the understanding when I made my dedication. I felt that I wouldn't be living up to my dedication if I remained a Jehovah's Witness. I disassociated a few weeks later. By that time, I had many more reasons for wanting to leave, but the UN scandal was one of the most important.
I think it's ironic how my baptism directly led to my disassociation.