Posts by humbled

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

humbled

Good morning, friends.

jhine, Without doubt we have trouble properly tagging our opinions and leaving them for such matters as parting our hair and picking our favorite color. But it is fair to say that there are levels of biblical error that are insubstantial. Yet some that are so corrosive that they overpower our formerly held OPINION. Former theists have had corrosive levels of reasonable doubt penetrate our minds. Doubt that has us fearing on two sides--Is it a dishonor to the concept of a loving and all-powerful God to question Him? Is it a dishonor to a loving and all-merciful God not to ask the questions that are reasonable?

It is fiction to support that the bible is a comprehensive harmonious whole. That is intellectual honesty. That said, it is on another basis, a historical one that some former Christians have turned from Theism. Only last night I read a bit that Dr Ehrman was not thrown off his Christian horse because of the inerrancy issue--Rather he could find no support for the historical validity for the Jesus/Christ/God story being a fact.

I agree that there are atheists who simply look at the mad scramble of the bible and, never having been programmed through a sunday school, find inerrancy is a good enough reason to forego Christianity--

Speaking to a discredited Jesus story and the need to leave the myth out of mankind's future:

Galaxie said, "Is it not about time mankind dismissed this ancient guesswork and concentrate on the good works of our contemporaries who deal with the present and work toward a better future without attaching the outcome to complex and controversial ancient myth?"

Intellectually, this is a great idea. But if we took this statement into the neediest or/and most uneducated neighborhoods of the world--excluding no one for reasons of race, religion, age, sex, or place of national origin you would find your program for good foundering very soon. IN MY OPINION!

Yes, in my opinion, all of us are impelled by some mythos or example--some combination of the hand-me-downs of others whose stories have impressed us. a good grandpa, our mother or father. Perhaps a teacher or a neighbor or family friend. Master-Bob asked this:" If you can judge what is good for your own, then why you need Jesus in the first place?"

Have you ever been in a place so destitute of goodness that there are no good examples that shine bright enough, no education to break through a culture that has become corrupt of generousity? And one that is poor. Why has the Jesus story persisted? It has transcended these barriers. And I have to say this, too: the Jesus stories have tremendous power for this huge reason--the forgiveness .

I put this out there because in my area, there are not enough mental health worker to provide even stop-gap measures for deeply damaged individuals, families, communities. Some need to feel clean. The best of the teachings of a good teacher are as wonderful and empowering as a miracle of physical healing. "Clean the inside of the cup that the outside might be clean also"--whether or not it was original to Jesus or not, this teaching has affected my life.

It is a subject worthy of discussion to ask ourselves if we were shaped in any way that was good by the words of Jesus' teaching. Our cultire hasn't outgrown the need for a rallying point, examples/teachers that transcends our experience. Does he/she have to be divine and born of a virgin?

These are just thoughts. The world still needs saving even if there is no Savior. I wonder about that.

99

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free in

this is my first post here.. i was raised in "the truth", and am an ex-bethelite who worked in brooklyn for several years back in the 90's.

a few years after i left bethel, i started to become disillusioned after doing research about the society and reading crisis of conscience (i know..i wasn't supposed to do that lol).

i eventually stopped attending meetings and going out in service.

humbled

jhine and Master_Bob

Read the fine parsing between the learned doctors of faith who make distinctions between inerrancy and infallibillity! Do THEY want to stay in tight with the orthodox church.

What the HELL! Getting an education is not the death knell to opinion-based religious views.

IT'S ALL OPINIONS if you are talking about what to do about any facts concerning "inspired" writing.

Chales Kraft is educated--he has some non-mainstream views of christian life.

Bruce Metzger does believe in the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus inspite of his scholarship which showed the errors in Christian texts.

A student of his, (as I understand) Bart Erhman, does NOT believe that Jesus was God-in-the-flesh OR resurrected on a third day.

Erhman's opinion is that there was a historical Jesus, yet states that he and many other scholars feel that "Jesus did not spend his ministry declaring himself to be divine"

Cofty's opinion is that Jesus was an ego-maniac who misled people.

I believe something else.

At some point we all form some opinion or other once we are even EXPOSED to this material.

No one on this board can escape forming an opinion--EVEN IF WE ARE WELL EDUCATED.

(It is just that some of us have to believe that dinosaurs lived with humans to hold certain opinions--and THAT is an opinion that is hard to respect.)

so what do I mean?

jhine, Opinion. Wha if the Book of Job is served up as "inerrant/infallible"--these words do not matter. There is no imprimatur that makes those pronouncements true--whatever "true" means.

It wears me out to chase down the theological mish-mash and fine points---Can you imagine evn a DIVINE Jesus pushing this BS on working people?

I can not.

Let's get together and sing and dance. to hell with the rest. And if Jesus said some good things? DO THEM. and teach them. Does it matter if he was divine?

In my opinion , NO.

21

Heard it from a friends JW mother

by Still Totally ADD in

jw
friends

the other day we went to our friends business to have our computer worked on.

our friend was raised a jw but never got baptized and left when he was in his late teens.

any way we started talking about the new jw.org and the new tv show they have.

humbled

The Mormons have been on this for years as some may have noted already.

Years back I was invited to go to the local meeting place on the U. of Arkansas campus to watch a televised tie-in to their General Conference where, among other talks, their Living Prophet spoke to the LDS faithful.

Check out "October 2014 LDS General Conference" online and see what may be the future for JWs.

40

So I'm going through a really difficult time right now.

by scaredtospeak in

i was publicly reproved last year and the elders have taken their sweet time in reinstating my "privileges".

it's been six months and i can't answer at the meetings or participate in the theocratic ministry school.

in all honesty- i don't care about the privileges.

humbled

Two of my 3 daughters had the eyes of the elders on them--both left the JWs--one had been baptised.

My youngest liked to dress "well"-- those days (only 5-6 years ago)that could have seemed too provocative--she walked a fine line Also, when the elders leaned on her to get baptised, she told them that she didn't have a relationship with God to justify that step. You might try talking to your mother about that--maybe she will get off you about being open-minded about JWs if you remind her it is about God and you not the Organization(on second thought, she might not be open to that line of thought).

Really, a lot of the young women in the congregations I was around had difficulties. Hauled in for one thing and another, pregnancies, sneaking out, spotty meeting attendence, drinking, keeping the wrong company.

Teen years are tough any way. You will get away eventually.

I am sorry that you can't confide in your mother. Just let her know that you love her--and that Jesus let each person choose what to do. You need to have people back off and not be crowding you. See if you can at least gain that ground--and try to be happy with it until you are out of the house.

It is hard. But you will make it--steady as you go.

Maeve

52

Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?

by tootired2care in

throughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.

basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.

some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.

humbled

If one is born in despair it is hard to have a vision of hope, redvip2000.

As a previous poster mentioned, the squalor of Native American reservations does not reflect the culture that they had before their decimation and removal.

They have a culture now--but it too often has become one of violence and substance abuse.

Have you ever lived in a broken community? I have lived in a community that has been breaking down for the past 40 years. The grandparents of the young men and women having babies here were hard working, pretty solid folks. There has been a breach in the culture--I have watched it--been involved in it-I raised 7 children around it. The young are struggling and failing to a great extent. The people on the margins of a technological society need strong families to make it--when the vision breaks down it is hard to repair.

When you get to know the back story of some, it is not so easy to write them off.

also--about housing projects-Sometimes it is hard to assess what you see(And of course, I don't know what YOU, redvip are seeing at all) But the poor always have had more street presence than the middle class.

My daughter had a photo essay that was the cover story published two months ago in the Washington Post about the housing project she lives in. It's also on line. It doesn't take a "position" on who is responsible. But it gives more texture to the discussion were have here.

Type in "Darcy Courteau Washington Post" " the Faces of Carver Langston"

Edit: To gather my posts on this topic--yes, there is a lot of responsiblity among the "haves" for the situation of the "have nots" that result from their invasive and extractive use of the land and the people (sometimes in their own countries). But I am trying to say that it isn't as simple as some would have it.

52

Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?

by tootired2care in

throughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.

basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.

some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.

humbled

Simon,

For he past five days I thought of this thread-and your comments here:

You wrote ".....Besides that I think the other great achievement is in organization and management of people and resources for a purpose (my emphasis).

Those are the things that the 3rd world seems to struggle with. Why do they need the west to dig a well or build a school?"

Your statements and the question reframes the topic into a more accessible one. Like: what makes one life better than another and what or who should make that better life attainable?

You said: for a purpose.

A man who grew up on the border of Alsace-Lorraine, Jean Frederich Oberlin (1740-1826) provided an example to any of us who toy with the idea of philanthropy or else bear with the frustration that we are the perpetrators of our own failure to thrive.

One of several children of a school teacher, became a clergyman and moved to the desperately poor Vosges region in the mountains and through his own gentle prodding and example (HE shouldered a pick to build a road--the skeptical peasants followed and then pitched in) transformed the lives of the parishes around him over the next 60 years of his life. Interdenominational--he welcomed absolutely all to his services. He showed them how to work as a community, to value education and kindness. How to improve the quality of the seedstock and orchards and how to improve the soil with compost!

The effect he had on the dignity of the poor, the ELEVATION FROM SQUALOR, the fact that the peasants there were relatively safe from extreme want during hard times due to the principals of public welfare becoming each person's personal responsibility created a growing fame. In circles both secular and religious his result astounded. /the entire population learned how to take care of one another.

A GOOD PURPOSE REALIZED

No one had had anything but contempt for these dirty, backward people who spoke their own backwoods dialect --until he came and stayed. When he arrived there was a hut designated as "the School". It was occupied by children too young to work and overseen by a former pig-herder--a man unable to work OR teach, "Sir, I cannot teach as I know nothing myself." He developed a schooling system that is a model for today--with hardly a penny spent!

In the U.S. in 1833 a college was established and named for him-Oberlin College opened to Blacks, white and women! Astonishing given the times.

I have read a 150 year old biography taken from his journal. It is a small book, available on line. It should be read by all.

notable that his funeral was attended by Catholics, Lutherans, Jews and all who realized that his legacy was really one that was a treasure.

I encourage anyone who finds the problems of poverty distressing, unapproachable and unmanagable.

Just had to bring this in.

Maeve

22

A Nice Story.

by Wrath of Jehu in

jw
friends

friends.. i'm sure you will all be encouraged by this nice story related to me by a brother in my old congregation.

4 year old "jana" (not her real name), is from a witness family in a middle sized city.

she has faced many challenges in her pre-school class.

humbled

I learned the Apostles' Creed as a child Catholic.

72

A "My Book of Bible Stories" tale that I've always hated

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

i've always hated story #53: "jepthah's promise".

i always felt sorry for the daughter who had to spend the rest of her days at the tabernacle because her father made a numb-nuts promise to god.

who did he think he was, making promises for other people?

humbled

Sorry-Put in google search then--Genesis Chapter 22-Parallel Hebrew Old Testament.

4

War: large scale self-defense? What is the Christian remedy?

by Terry in

humbled

Never was popular.

Augustine of Hippo changed Jesus' teaching on "turn the other cheek" as fast as he could when war was on his doorstep--the Vandals at Hippo.

I can agree that if assault becomes personal--I will respond. But do not tell me a cock-and-bull story or feed me a political mish-mash of misinformation and expect me to fight.

Terrorism? we should first fight it by not going into a Muslim country--such as Iraq-- raiding the oil and leaving the common people with less infrastructure than they had before we attacked the bad guys there--bad guys that the U.S. had supported for years.

I am sick of the reactive behavior of U.S. citizens. I am sick of the reactive behavior of other citizens of other countries. It will be a great time when we TALK to people we see in airports and farmers' markets who are different from ourselves ---or we think are different.

They are and they aren't different--we should find better ways.

Well--there.

War is hell.

Edit: Why do soldiers come home with mental health problems--especially NOW? The "Just War" just doesn't resonate sufficient to the horror that they are involved with-- the horrors that they perpetrate as much as any.

There has to be better way.

What do you think,Terry?

re-edit:Oops! You want a Christian perspective? Sorry--I am prolly not orthodox enough to qualify. I don't believe the Bible was really "inspired" by god--He just wasn't breathing hard enough.

31

JWs and Exclusivity

by Don Schneider in

jesus, mark 9-40 (nwt).

the jehovahs witnesses assert exclusivity.

that is, they are the only true christian faith.

humbled

Hello, Don1

A great scripture--one that was never referenced in the 22 years I was a JW.

The (N) NWT bible the JWs use is stuffed with cross-references that are meant to bind us irrevocably to "the Truth". But clearly that was a problem scrpture. So they chose to supply antidotes to this very inclusive verse.

WTS gives Mark 9:40 cross references to a couple of verses that shape-shift the matter of inclusiveness. Both Mt. 12:30 and Lu. 11:23 say this: "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters." The context has no bearing on the subject that triggered the topic in Mark

This is where the WTS jumps the subject inherent in the original story in Mark 9 which makes clear that the MAN WHO IS NOT WALKING WITH THE "IN" GROUP OF JESUS IS JUST FINE--

So the WTS then makes a cross reference from Lu. 11:23--a verse has no relevance to Mark's point-- to John 11:52. You find yourself dumped in a slag heap that can only mean that you must have arrived at the door of ( Ta-ta!) The Anointed! " and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about might also be gathered together in one."

The cross-references from John 11 fan out into the epistles. There, once again you can relax again in more verses that encourage universal brotherhood in Jesus--but only after the ever vigilant WTS has navigated you past those treacherous currents of real, genuine inclusiveness.

It is a cult.

l