truthsearcher

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Posts by truthsearcher

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  38

  A QUESTION FOR THE CHRISTIANS ON THIS BOARD

  by vitty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what is the second comming of christ, i mean what will happen...............armageddon??????????

  destruction for anyone who isnt a christian ?.

  he he going restore paradise on earth ????????.

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  truthsearcher

  P.S. A disclaimer

  The websites I quoted were found after a quick search. I do not know the rest of their content and can not say whether their views would be ones that I would support.
• 
  38

  A QUESTION FOR THE CHRISTIANS ON THIS BOARD

  by vitty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what is the second comming of christ, i mean what will happen...............armageddon??????????

  destruction for anyone who isnt a christian ?.

  he he going restore paradise on earth ????????.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  truthsearcher

  As far as I am concerned I am sure it will all pan out in the end thats why I am a "pan Millenialist"

  That is a funny one! Haven't heard that position taught in any seminaries before.

  I would like to add a few thoughts to the thread. First of all, it is understandable why there is strong feeling on the subject given the fact that many of you spent years of your life "preaching" the coming destruction of all but the JWs. You believed this was the biblical view because you were being "fed" the "truth" by the WT. However, as I have stated in previous posts, the WT took delight in twisting the scriptures to present their own agenda: join us OR ELSE! They used Armaggedon as the "carrot" (as was previously referred to): you better be faithful OR ELSE! And when you had questions or doubts, they told you to be quiet OR ELSE! You lived your lives on the edge, constantly being told "any day now", when they had been saying this for over a century. The Bible talks about "hope deferred makes the heart sick" and so some of you burned out or became depressed or sick under the beatings of an evil, not a faithful, slave. So, I offer the following thoughts, knowing that many of you do not want to read any more about the "end times", but just wanting to provide more info on the topic. I also realize that the varying views presented are an area where the WT despises "Christendom" for lack of unity in beliefs.

  As far as understanding what Christianity teaches outside the WT, the differences boil down to methods of hermeneutics (or how the Scripture is interpreted) and the also your view of the authority/accuracy of the Bible. I did a quick search and found this summary online and maybe it will be helpful (or maybe it will just add to the confusion!) at

  http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/000900.html :

  "There is no area of Christian theology more contentious or confusing than eschatology, the study of the end times. Should the Book of Revelation be interpreted literally or metphorically? Will Christ establish his Kingdom on earth or has his millenial reign already begun? While evangelicals differ on many of these issues there is a general agreement on three particular points:

  1. Jesus Christ will return to earth one day.
  2. There will be a bodily resurrection of all people who have ever lived.
  3. There will be a final judgment in which believers join Christ for eternity while nonbelievers are separated from God?s presence.*

  How this occurs, though, is an issue of great debate. One of the central issues involves the millennium, the thousand-year period during which Christ is said to rule the world. (Revelation 20:1-10). The four most popular views are dispensational premillenialism, historical premillenialism, amillenialism, and postmillennialism.

  Dispensational premillenialism is the view that Jesus will return to remove the church from the world in an event known as the rapture. Theories differ on whether the rapture will occur before, in the middle of, or after a seven year period called the tribulation (pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib). These events will culminate in a literal thousand year rulership of Christ when peace will reign, the natural world will no longer be cursed, and evil will be suppressed. A final rebellion, however, will break out which will end in God crushing evil forever, judging the resurrected, and establishing heaven and hell.

  The following beliefs are features of dispensational premillenialism:

• Christ offered to the Jews the Davidic kingdom in the first century. They rejected it, and it was postponed until the future.
• The current church age is a "parenthesis" unknown to the Old Testament prophets.
• God has separated programs for the church and Israel.
• The church will ultimately lose influence in the world and become corrupted or apostate toward the end of the church age.
• Christ will return secretly to rapture his saints before the great tribulation.
• After the tribulation Christ will return to earth to administer a Jewish political kingdom based in Jerusalem for one thousand years. Satan will be bound, and the temple will be rebuilt and the sacrificial system reinstituted.
• Near the end of the millennium. Satan will be released and Christ will be attacked at Jerusalem.
• Christ will call down judgment from heaven and destroy his enemies. The (second) resurrection and the judgment of the wicked will occur, initiating the eternal order.**

  Proponents of this view include: Dallas Theological Seminary, Tim LaHaye (author of the Left Behind series), and Pat Robertson.

  Historical premillenialism is the belief that Christ will return "before the millennium" in order to resurrect the saints (the "first resurrection"), establish his rule from Jerusalem over the rebellious nations (the battle of Armageddon), and usher in a thousand year period of material peace and prosperity; at the end of this period the nations (still in natural bodies) will rebel and make war against Christ and the resurrected saints (the battle of Gog and Magog), who will be saved by fire from heaven, followed by the second resurrection??now of unbelievers??and the final judgment

  The following are features of historic premillennialism:

• The New Testament era Church is the initial phase in Christ's kingdom, as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets.
• The New Testament Church may win occasional victories in history, but ultimately she will fail in her mission, lose influence, and become corrupted as worldwide evil increases toward the end of the Church Age.
• The Church will pass through a future, worldwide, unprecedented time of travail. This era is known as the Great Tribulation, which will punctuate the end of contemporary history.
• Christ will return at the end of the Tribulation to rapture the Church, resurrect deceased saints and conduct the judgment of the righteous in the "twinkling of an eye."
• Christ will then descend to the earth with His glorified saints, fight the battle of Armageddon, bind Satan, and establish a worldwide, political kingdom, which will be personally administered by Him for 1,000 years from Jerusalem.
• At the end of the millennial reign, Satan will be loosed and a massive rebellion against the kingdom and a fierce assault against Christ and His saints will occur.
• God will intervene with fiery judgment to rescue Christ and the saints. The resurrection and the judgment of the wicked will occur and the eternal order will begin. (pgs 199-200)

  Proponents include George Eldon Ladd, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and the early church fathers (e.g., Ireneaus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr).

  Amillenialism is the belief that the millennial kingdom is indeterminate in length and fulfilled by Christ currently ruling in heaven. At the end of this reign Christ will come back to gather the church and judge the nations.

  The following are features of amillennialism:

• The church age is the kingdom era prophesied in the Old Testament, as the New Testament church takes the role once assigned to Israel.
• Satan was bound during Jesus' earthly ministry, restraining him while the Gospel is being preached in the world.
• Insofar as Christ presently rules in the hearts of believers, they will have some influence on culture while living out their faith.
• Toward the end evil's growth will accelerate, culminating in the great tribulation and a personal antichrist.^
• Christ will return to end history, resurrect and judge all men, and establish the eternal order.
• The eternal destiny of the redeemed may be either in heaven or in a totally renovated new earth.

  ^Some amils are preterists, believing that many of the prophecies (including the one about the antichrist) have already been fulfilled (usually in 70AD).

  Proponents of this view include Augustine, Martin Luther, and John Calvin.

  Postmillenialism is the belief that Christ?s second coming will follow the millennium which will itself be ushered in by the spiritual and moral influence of Christian preaching and teaching in the world.
  
  The following are features of postmillennialism:
  
  The Messianic kingdom was founded on earth during the earthly ministry of Christ, in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and making the New Testament church the transformed Israel.

• The kingdom is essentially redemptive and spiritual rather than political and physical.
• The kingdom will transform society and culture during history.
• The kingdom of Christ will gradually expand in time and on earth through Christ's royal power as King reigning in heaven not on earth.
• The Great Commission will succeed bringing about the virtual Christianization of the nations.

  At this point there are two types of postmillennialists. Pietistic postmillennialists deny that the postmillennial advance of the kingdom involves the total transformation of culture through the application of biblical law. Theonomic postmillennialists affirm this.

  An extended period of great spiritual prosperity may endure for millennia, after which history will come to an end by the personal, visible, bodily return of Christ accompanied by a literal resurrection and a general judgment, which ushers in the final and eternal form of the kingdom.

  Postmillennialism was popular during the 18th and 19th centuries and is popular with many mainline denominations. Few evangelicals, however, hold this view of eschatology.
  
  * Boyd and Eddy, Across the Spectrum
  **All points listed as features are from R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus"

• I myself am a dispensational premillenialist, and I believe that the return of Israel to the land was a partial fulfillment of prophecy (BTW, Russell and Rutherford also originally belived in the restoration of the nation of Israel, Rutherford even travelled to and preached in Jerusalem. A Golden Age magazine described this trip and several books were written promoting this view. Those Jews that he "converted" must have been confused by the "new light" that later said this was a demonic teaching)

• Another thing is that I believe the WT also is fulfilling prophecy as one of the signs of end: false teachers. A number of different cult groups arose in the late 1800's. I found some information from : http://www.realanswers.tv/answers/answers05.html

• Does the Bible say anything about churches growing cold in the nearing of the return of Christ?

  This is a common question by those who believe in the “Pre-Millennial / Pre-Tribulation Rapture” view of End Times. Common Millennial Views: Pre-Millennial – The Second Coming of the Lord precedes the 1000 year Millennium ( all three Tribulation views all apply to this ) Post-Millennial – The Lord’s Second Coming occurs after the Millennium ( this is often referred to as Kingdom Theology ) Common Tribulation Views: Pre-Tribulation – The “Rapture” of the Church occurs before the seven year Tribulation Mid-Tribulation – The “Rapture” occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation ( Pre-Wrath ) Post-Tribulation – The “Rapture” occurs immediately preceding the Second Coming Pastor Yandian’s teaching follows the Pre-Millennial / Pre-Tribulation model. I urge you to study his book, Understanding the END TIMES ( booktape ). His thorough presentation of the scriptural basis for this view, and his response to the opposing positions, will give you a great understanding of the subject. False Teachers as a Sign of the End Now, to your question. There are several scriptures that lead many to believe that one of the major indications of the nearness of the Lord’s appearance, the Rapture , not the Second Coming , is a great “apostasy” from the Church. However, like many of the other signs of His appearance, this sign is not so distinct that it can be absolute. Wars, global trouble, natural disasters, false teachers / false Messiahs, events regarding Israel, great revivals, and great apostasy have occurred throughout the age of the Church. It is very difficult to pinpoint any event as the “one thing” that marks His appearance—when we are “caught-up” to Him, we will be able to look back and say, “Yep! That was it!” One of the signs mentioned numerous times as leading to the last days is the presence of false teachers. 1JOHN 2:18: Little children, it is the last time. And just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which we know that it is a last hour. In this passage the false teachers are referred to as “antichrists.” Notice, this is not the Antichrist ( tape ). John tells us their presence shows that it is “ a ” last day (again not the Last Day). The significance is that there are many events in this age called the “Last Days” that are confirmations of His soon coming return, but they are not the immediate event. They are to be an encouragement to us—a witness to His Promise. The Apostle John doesn’t even seem to be worried or troubled over this, as if it was to be expected. We, the Church, are not to allow the events of this world to shake our faith, nor to cause us to question His promise. In reference to the events preceding the End Times, Jesus told His disciples, “ Let not your hearts be troubled… ” ( MATT. 24:6 ) And, in the book of Hebrews ( tape ), Paul quotes from the Old Testament book of Habakkuk ( tape ) in challenging the Church not to become discouraged by the seeming delay of the Lord’s return. HEBREWS 10:37: For "yet a little while, and He who shall come will come and will not delay." These Christians were losing hope in the return of the Lord—and the restoration of all they had lost—because it hadn’t happened as they thought (or were incorrectly taught). Returning to the issue of false teachers, there are numerous other references to this sign of the Last Days. In most of the New Testament Letters, when “Last Things,” are mentioned so are false teachers. 2Timothy 3:1–5; 2Peter 2:1–3; 1 John 2:18–20; 4:1–3; Jude 10–16 This brings us to our next point. If there are false Teachers, there will be followers. 1TIMOTHY 4:1: But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, 2) speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience… 2 TIMOTHY 4:3–4: For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear. 4) And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths. These verses show us that the false teachers are inspired by Satan himself, through demonic influences, and their purpose is to lead believers astray—to distract them from the mission of the Church. Also, we see that their arrival is desired by those who are looking for new and different things, people who are tired of the “standard” set forth in the Word of God. Their “itching ears” will be filled with the diluted truth ( error ) taught by false teachers. Those who follow after these teachings will comprise what we know of as the “apostasy.” The reality is, these false teachers, and the ones who follow them, have been present throughout all the age of the Church. They were obviously present in Paul’s day, in Peter’s day, in John’s and Jude’s time, and they even exist today. However, as we mentioned previously, one of the signs of the Last Days is the increase of false teachers ( I believe this can refer not only to number, but also to their boldness and hypocrisy ). This increase will certainly give rise to many more being led astray. But, since this is relative to what has been before, we may assume that we are seeing the great apostasy, when in reality, something worse is yet to come. In other words, it will seem like “ the Last Day ” when it is only a last day . " Does this add anything of value to the thread? TS