Even though there are ex-Catholics, ex-Protestants and the like, they are able to drift away from church. Most churches don't pile up rules for everyday life upon members and they certainly don't shun members who don't live up to a certain standard. But even though their former religion isn't quite like the cults of the Mormons or JW's, I have heard former Catholics and the like call themselves exes.
Jews don't typically stop calling themselves Jews because they are ethnic Jews when they stop being religious Jews. I have seen Jews saying they are "ethnic Jews only" when I saw them eating a ham sandwich.
OnTheWayOut
JoinedPosts by OnTheWayOut
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28
Why do ex-JW's talk so much about being ex-JW's?
by Sour Grapes inis it because we were in the cult watchtower compound that we talk about being ex-jw's when we stop being active?
i have never heard anyone say that i was an ex-catholic or an ex-lutheran or an ex-baptist.
they just stop going to their church and don't talk about it.. years after not stepping inside a kingdom hell, many of us still have to talk about being ex-jw's.
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OnTheWayOut
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66
Since leaving the JW Organization, who is believing?
by Issa ini left the jw organization last year during summer.
maybe some of you can relate.
who of you are agnostic or an atheist?
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OnTheWayOut
Between learning what science has to say about the impossibility of a global flood, and then learning how the Bible came about, adding in generally learning how every religion was created by men, I was heavily leaning atheistic.
I was pushed over the edge by reason on compassion. 2004's Indian Ocean tsunami woke me up further than most things- randomly killing a hundred thousand children. The Haiti earthquake can be added to that. Regardless of how we got here, there is not a god worthy of our groveling in worship if that is what he allows.Science seeks the answers. God is a cope-out answer.
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Did You Go To Meetings in Very Inclement Weather?
by minimus inliving in new england means having lots of snow and cold.
elders were very reluctant to cancel or reschedule a meeting due to the weather.
i lived 3 towns away from the kingdom hall and if it was icy and treacherous my vote would always be to cancel the meeting....and forget about rescheduling!.
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OnTheWayOut
I was with a group of reasonable elders. They cancelled meetings due to weather rather easily.
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340
Calling Cofty and others regarding evolution
by dubstepped inso i have started down the path of trying to understand evolution, and to get the linear lies that the jws planted in my head out of it.
i bought an audiobook called "evolution: what the fossils say and why it matters" by donald prothero.
i heard it recommended on an atheist podcast that i listened to.
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OnTheWayOut
I will answer as the amateur I am, and hopefully provide simple answers to the complicated subject you choose to tackle.
First of all, monkeys did not evolve into humans. Not even a portion of the monkeys in some isolated area of Africa. Monkeys and humans have a common ancestor. It's a huge difference. Each branch of the evolutionary chain adapted to survive in its own way. Similarly, humans are on one branch and various monkey species are several different branches.
Asking "why are there still....." questions suggests that it is all linear. Perhaps the presentations of evolution cause many to believe that. There is no single family of a species in existence with one set of parents. Maybe an easy way to understand this is to say that "If Asians followed the bison across the dry land of the Bering Straits, why are there still Asians in Asia?" We can all clearly understand that they didn't all go that way. (...and forgive me if that theory is not the accepted one anymore.)
Such questions as "Why are there still monkeys?" or "Why don't we see new species arriving today?" are creationist zinger questions. Ones they ask to stump people. There are answers, but since the answers cannot be framed in a single statement as the question was, they quickly shout "Checkmate, atheists!" and don't do the work of understanding the answer.
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As far as seeing macro evolution today, it's not like you could watch an old black and white movie from the 1920's and then another from the 21st century and note that the humans are different. It takes a wee bit more than your lifetime for changes to occur.
And further, as far as man is concerned, modern interactions interfere with "speciation," the evolutionary process by which populations evolve to become distinct species. If the Aborigines or the Japanese or any group on the planet remained isolated for several generations (granted, an amatuer like me doesn't know how many generations) then it would be likely that they could no longer produce offspring with outsiders because they finally became genetically different.
To take that to the animals, it does happen. But we don't see it easily because of the "several generations" things. Most hybrids of animals produce sterile offspring and don't allow for the creation of entirely different branches of the tree- think of the horse and donkey producing a mule; mules are sterile. But sometimes, speciation occurs and we have seen the results. Read up on the Galopogos Finch and see that it has occured. Even though many will say they are all still finches, apparently there are some different ones that cannot interbreed. So each will adapt separately and follow its own evolution.
And keep in mind that just as humans interfere with their own evolution by not staying isolated, humans also interfere with the evolution of animals. We give less and less space to wildlife and keep the land for ourselves. There is less and less chance that portions of a species will be isolated.
But if you are interested in seeing speciation in life that is a bit less complicated than animals, there are flowers and other plants that have been documented to evolve a bit quicker into separate species.
Experts, feel free to tear apart my layman's understanding. Otherwise, I hope it helps.
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58
Don't you think that some people are just better off within the org?
by paradiseseeker inthis is my first post, i will introduce myself later.
first of all, i must say that english is not my mother tongue (i'm spanish), so excuse me if i make any mistake.. do you think that some people simply can't cope with being outside the jws?
some of them are too worldlyphobic to be around non-jws, too dependent on a fixed set of rules in order to carry on with their lives, too dependent on the hope of paradise and resurrection, too unable to leave their personal comfort zone within the organization.
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OnTheWayOut
If we are all honest, through out all the years we were menially in, was not there many times we actually enjoyed being a Witness?
I thought so, but it turned out I was wrong. I thought I enjoyed having a special relationship with God, him having saved me for special purposes. That was hogwash.
I thought I enjoyed "helping" people. It turns out I was helping them to think they should remain good JW's, so they would have been better off without my help. I thought I enjoyed delivering powerful helpful public talks. I suppose you can guess how I felt later when I realized I might have been helping to convert some people to JW's with those talks.
You were "happy that [you] had a good future to look forward to." But once you discovered that was a lie, you probably changed your thoughts on your previous happiness. Once I knew the lies, I never wanted to look back with fondness. -
58
Don't you think that some people are just better off within the org?
by paradiseseeker inthis is my first post, i will introduce myself later.
first of all, i must say that english is not my mother tongue (i'm spanish), so excuse me if i make any mistake.. do you think that some people simply can't cope with being outside the jws?
some of them are too worldlyphobic to be around non-jws, too dependent on a fixed set of rules in order to carry on with their lives, too dependent on the hope of paradise and resurrection, too unable to leave their personal comfort zone within the organization.
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OnTheWayOut
No-zombie, I met a few who went back for the sake of loved ones, accepting a misery that accompanies that. But I have never met someone who wished they could go back to ignorance. I guess there are some, but most all of us not only learn TTATT, but we learn that we were missing important things in life to live the lie.
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58
Don't you think that some people are just better off within the org?
by paradiseseeker inthis is my first post, i will introduce myself later.
first of all, i must say that english is not my mother tongue (i'm spanish), so excuse me if i make any mistake.. do you think that some people simply can't cope with being outside the jws?
some of them are too worldlyphobic to be around non-jws, too dependent on a fixed set of rules in order to carry on with their lives, too dependent on the hope of paradise and resurrection, too unable to leave their personal comfort zone within the organization.
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OnTheWayOut
Are some better off without "the truth about the truth" ? Maybe so.
I like no-zombie's example of whether or not we should remove the morphine drip from a dying person so they can reconnect with loved ones or if we should let them go peacefully.
But that agonizing decision is for the terminal patients or the terminal JW's. With a terminal patient, experts have a pretty good knowledge of when someone has passed the point of no return. But really, isn't a JW not necessarily at the point of no return until very late in their life? Who decides?
I say everyone deserves to know the truth about "the truth" no matter what stage in life they are at, and those that cannot cope will self-reveal such. It is just as every terminally ill person would deserve to choose between some radical, possibly harmful treatment that would ultimately extend their life and the morphine drip.Further, the analogy is not perfect but I will expand on such. Hardcore JW lifers are not in an isolated world whether they want to believe that or not. Their staying ignorant or learning reality doesn't just effect them, it effects the people around them. So call me selfish, but most JW's have loved ones who woke up and want the best for them. And the imperfect analogy is that many terminal patients should be allowed to decide outcomes for themselves, but we are not always allowing such with our JW loved ones. But that's mostly because we know they are not truly "terminal." They don't truly know the happiness of reality.
I could go on, but I think most of us can speculate further from this point. -
18
Talking Janet Jackson and Religious Freedom with the Wife
by OnTheWayOut inmy recent sidewalk discussion with a couple of jw's has gotten me in the mood to say more when appropriate.so the wife and i were riding in the car and cat stevens comes on.
i mentioned to her that cat stevens left music when he was still popular and converted to islam back in the 1970's- how he was told that his music would have to be morally acceptable and he found it easier to just abandon making new music for at least 20 years.
so i didn't really remember all the details and i figured the conversation would die.
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OnTheWayOut
JRK, thanks for the great thoughts. It was some kind of progress. I just don't know how much.
smiddy3, thanks a bunch for the compliment. Take care.
redpilltwice, I think reasoning skills actually improve from inactivity away from the cult.
Carla, thanks
Charles Gillette, thanks. I doubt I deserve all that praise about it.
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23
Who Do JWs Fear The Most? Top Five
by Fred Franztone init's a fear-based religion, at its core.
jws fear many things, but what or who do they fear the most?
let's find out.... 5) satan.
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OnTheWayOut
Satan
The Demons in that used furniture from the yard sale
Smurfs
Apostates
The elders and higher ups in Watchtower -
18
Talking Janet Jackson and Religious Freedom with the Wife
by OnTheWayOut inmy recent sidewalk discussion with a couple of jw's has gotten me in the mood to say more when appropriate.so the wife and i were riding in the car and cat stevens comes on.
i mentioned to her that cat stevens left music when he was still popular and converted to islam back in the 1970's- how he was told that his music would have to be morally acceptable and he found it easier to just abandon making new music for at least 20 years.
so i didn't really remember all the details and i figured the conversation would die.
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OnTheWayOut
Page one answers
Toes Up, I don't really know about it. She seems able to dismiss much and not think about it again. But she did remember what I said about the Australian Royal Commission (another thread) so maybe.
dubstepped, that is a very important thing to remember about waking up being a series of things, many small.Cha Ching, I don't imagine much happening next. But keep hope alive.
days of future passed, I had not thought of that. She might just remember that we discussed some comparisons and it wasn't the way Watchtower presents it. Thanks.Aude Sapere, she won't hear Cat Stevens too much, but maybe Janet Jackson. She's pretty much moved on into the more modern black divas, but hey- throwback happens often. China will definitely come up again.
Flipper, thanks for the kudos on using Steve Hassan methods. I just know that I typically haven't been seizing the opportunity at all and I should do it some of the time.scratchme1010, it has been a long road to this point. And some stuff, I can't breach the subject at all. I will keep working with the wedges into her head that I find.
MrRoboto, I like your thoughts on "an idea." Thanks.
NVR2L8, I get that. It's been longer with my wife- something on the order of eleven years. And there is no telling from individual to individual how long their wall will stay up, some will never come down.