OnTheWayOut

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Posts by OnTheWayOut

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  58

  Don't you think that some people are just better off within the org?

  by paradiseseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is my first post, i will introduce myself later.

  first of all, i must say that english is not my mother tongue (i'm spanish), so excuse me if i make any mistake.. do you think that some people simply can't cope with being outside the jws?

  some of them are too worldlyphobic to be around non-jws, too dependent on a fixed set of rules in order to carry on with their lives, too dependent on the hope of paradise and resurrection, too unable to leave their personal comfort zone within the organization.

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  OnTheWayOut

  No-zombie, I met a few who went back for the sake of loved ones, accepting a misery that accompanies that. But I have never met someone who wished they could go back to ignorance. I guess there are some, but most all of us not only learn TTATT, but we learn that we were missing important things in life to live the lie.
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  58

  Don't you think that some people are just better off within the org?

  by paradiseseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is my first post, i will introduce myself later.

  first of all, i must say that english is not my mother tongue (i'm spanish), so excuse me if i make any mistake.. do you think that some people simply can't cope with being outside the jws?

  some of them are too worldlyphobic to be around non-jws, too dependent on a fixed set of rules in order to carry on with their lives, too dependent on the hope of paradise and resurrection, too unable to leave their personal comfort zone within the organization.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Are some better off without "the truth about the truth" ? Maybe so.
  
  I like no-zombie's example of whether or not we should remove the morphine drip from a dying person so they can reconnect with loved ones or if we should let them go peacefully.
  
  But that agonizing decision is for the terminal patients or the terminal JW's. With a terminal patient, experts have a pretty good knowledge of when someone has passed the point of no return. But really, isn't a JW not necessarily at the point of no return until very late in their life? Who decides?
  
  I say everyone deserves to know the truth about "the truth" no matter what stage in life they are at, and those that cannot cope will self-reveal such. It is just as every terminally ill person would deserve to choose between some radical, possibly harmful treatment that would ultimately extend their life and the morphine drip.

  Further, the analogy is not perfect but I will expand on such. Hardcore JW lifers are not in an isolated world whether they want to believe that or not. Their staying ignorant or learning reality doesn't just effect them, it effects the people around them. So call me selfish, but most JW's have loved ones who woke up and want the best for them. And the imperfect analogy is that many terminal patients should be allowed to decide outcomes for themselves, but we are not always allowing such with our JW loved ones. But that's mostly because we know they are not truly "terminal." They don't truly know the happiness of reality.
  
  I could go on, but I think most of us can speculate further from this point.
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  18

  Talking Janet Jackson and Religious Freedom with the Wife

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my recent sidewalk discussion with a couple of jw's has gotten me in the mood to say more when appropriate.so the wife and i were riding in the car and cat stevens comes on.

  i mentioned to her that cat stevens left music when he was still popular and converted to islam back in the 1970's- how he was told that his music would have to be morally acceptable and he found it easier to just abandon making new music for at least 20 years.

  so i didn't really remember all the details and i figured the conversation would die.

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  OnTheWayOut

  JRK, thanks for the great thoughts. It was some kind of progress. I just don't know how much.

  smiddy3, thanks a bunch for the compliment. Take care.

  redpilltwice, I think reasoning skills actually improve from inactivity away from the cult.

  Carla, thanks

  Charles Gillette, thanks. I doubt I deserve all that praise about it.
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  23

  Who Do JWs Fear The Most? Top Five

  by Fred Franztone in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's a fear-based religion, at its core.

  jws fear many things, but what or who do they fear the most?

  let's find out.... 5) satan.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Satan
  The Demons in that used furniture from the yard sale
  Smurfs
  Apostates
  The elders and higher ups in Watchtower
• 
  18

  Talking Janet Jackson and Religious Freedom with the Wife

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my recent sidewalk discussion with a couple of jw's has gotten me in the mood to say more when appropriate.so the wife and i were riding in the car and cat stevens comes on.

  i mentioned to her that cat stevens left music when he was still popular and converted to islam back in the 1970's- how he was told that his music would have to be morally acceptable and he found it easier to just abandon making new music for at least 20 years.

  so i didn't really remember all the details and i figured the conversation would die.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Page one answers
  
  Toes Up, I don't really know about it. She seems able to dismiss much and not think about it again. But she did remember what I said about the Australian Royal Commission (another thread) so maybe.
  
  dubstepped, that is a very important thing to remember about waking up being a series of things, many small.

  Cha Ching, I don't imagine much happening next. But keep hope alive.
  
  days of future passed, I had not thought of that. She might just remember that we discussed some comparisons and it wasn't the way Watchtower presents it. Thanks.

  Aude Sapere, she won't hear Cat Stevens too much, but maybe Janet Jackson. She's pretty much moved on into the more modern black divas, but hey- throwback happens often. China will definitely come up again.
  
  Flipper, thanks for the kudos on using Steve Hassan methods. I just know that I typically haven't been seizing the opportunity at all and I should do it some of the time.

  scratchme1010, it has been a long road to this point. And some stuff, I can't breach the subject at all. I will keep working with the wedges into her head that I find.
  
  MrRoboto, I like your thoughts on "an idea." Thanks.
  
  NVR2L8, I get that. It's been longer with my wife- something on the order of eleven years. And there is no telling from individual to individual how long their wall will stay up, some will never come down.
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  64

  Wave your phone lights and dance at the Assemblies!

  by days of future passed in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  my sister sent me this youtube.

  in it are witnesses waving their phone lights and dancing in the aisles.

  sorry if this vid has been posted before.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k7iw-zisgw.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Watchtower is trying so hard to morph the religion into something completely different and ditch their past.
  I doubt it will succeed because of the internet, but they will try.

  
  
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  121

  Did man really go to the moon?

  by atomant in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  l have researched this subject and come to the conclusion that no we didn't.what do others think?.

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  OnTheWayOut

  I doubt this is a totally serious question: Did man really go to the moon?
  
  But treating it seriously for a moment, how many people would be in on the conspiracy? People in government and in academia and probably some of the media people. And 12 American men are said to have actually stepped on the moon.
  
  Why would each man only walk on the moon for one mission if it were faked? Wouldn't they minimize the number by saying some of the same men were going to walk the moon again? But mostly, do you really think all those people involved in faking it could keep their mouths shut?
  
  It seems difficult to think that 1969 technology could have taken man to the moon, but notice this:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhp-FTYSGe8&feature=youtu.be
  
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  18

  Talking Janet Jackson and Religious Freedom with the Wife

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my recent sidewalk discussion with a couple of jw's has gotten me in the mood to say more when appropriate.so the wife and i were riding in the car and cat stevens comes on.

  i mentioned to her that cat stevens left music when he was still popular and converted to islam back in the 1970's- how he was told that his music would have to be morally acceptable and he found it easier to just abandon making new music for at least 20 years.

  so i didn't really remember all the details and i figured the conversation would die.

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  OnTheWayOut

  My recent sidewalk discussion with a couple of JW's has gotten me in the mood to say more when appropriate.
  
  So the wife and I were riding in the car and Cat Stevens comes on. I mentioned to her that Cat Stevens left music when he was still popular and converted to Islam back in the 1970's- how he was told that his music would have to be morally acceptable and he found it easier to just abandon making new music for at least 20 years.

  So I didn't really remember all the details and I figured the conversation would die. But my wife compared it to Janet Jackson's ending her tour and converting to Islam for her Billionaire husband who wanted her to give him an heir. I said "Whatever happened there? I remember she was pregnant. Was it a boy?"
  
  My wife apparently was updated at the hair salon. She said that Janet had a boy and separated from the billionaire shortly afterward, stating that she was severely verbally abused by the husband, and is now in a custody battle. So I decided to see where I could take this conversation.
  
  OTWO: What do you think about what Janet said?
  
  Mrs. OTWO: Well, I was very surprised that Janet would convert to Islam and have a baby at near 50 years old. She had to stay on bed rest to do so.
  
  OTWO: What about the Muslim lifestyle? Did she cover her hair?
  
  Mrs. OTWO: She said she loved having a private life- remember that she had a previous marriage for years that nobody knew about. Supposedly, she liked the idea of Islam and living a quiet life. I heard that she totally converted, but I never saw photos of her in Muslim garb.
  (WRONG, Apparently, pregnant Janet DID release photos in full hijab, and may not have actually converted to Islam, but possibly only accepted the lifestyle, but not important to my discussion with my wife.)
  
  
  
  Mrs. OTWO: Her family gave her the strength to get away from her husband with her son. She is still fighting for custody and is supposed to start touring again.
  
  OTWO: So I imagine her family helped her to de-convert from Islam.
  
  Mrs. OTWO: Why? I mean, she converted and her son may very well be raised Muslim.
  
  OTWO: Because she was treated like dirt by her own husband. Because she probably realized how common that is within Islam. Because she was able to see the truth of it. I think it's wonderful that her family didn't give up on her and were ready to help break her free from an oppressive religious life.
  (I don't know if my wife picked up any vibe of a slight dig at 'oppressive religious life' or not, but at least I got to say how family was ready to break her free from it.)
  
  So that could have been the end of our discussion, but we later were driving after having visited a Chinese friend who was helping his nephew from China to get through school in the United States. The nephew is still in high school and attends a Lutheran Christian school. The nephew stated how the school claims wrongly that in China, much religion is suppressed. He feels that religion is given freedom in China. That led to a discussion about whether that was true or not. His uncle said that many religions in China are underground religions that the government doesn't approve of because they may be places where people discuss and plan anti-government movements. I said I had directly heard the same thing about Cuba- that they banned churches for a long time because that was where people gathered to plan anti-communism things.
  
  So back to the car. My wife asked what side of the issue I was on about whether the nephew was right or the Lutheran school was right. I said that the nephew lived in a small town in China where people may have been a bit more open about their beliefs than in heavily populated areas. But I decided to go further with this discussion since we had gotten pretty far earlier about Islam.
  
  OTWO: Just as Janet Jackson might have been getting information on Islam just from her fiancee at the time and not really seeing that the lifestyle was harsh on women because he treated her well before marriage, the nephew probably hasn't seen the real oppression of religion in China. Even his uncle admitted to underground religions existing, but seemed to be of the opinion that it was only because they were anti-government. Without knowing more, I would have to lean toward agreeing with the Lutheran school.
  
  Mrs. OTWO: Yeah, but they don't know from any personal experience. The uncle and the nephew lived there and have a different opinion. Doesn't their personal experience outweigh opinions?
  
  OTWO: Possibly. I think the uncle tended to agree that religion wasn't free but was hesitant to say any more that might sway his nephew whose family all still live in China. And further, the nephew is just 17 and had been in China all his life until less than 2 years ago. Don't you think that he needs exposure to outside information before he could be sure that his personal experience allows him a proper viewpoint?
  
  Mrs. OTWO: Yes, I suppose so.
  
  (Okay, I opened a door. Now, rather than let it go, I decided to connect the dots to be sure she got the point.)
  
  OTWO: So you can agree it's a good thing for the nephew to be exposed to outside information?
  
  Mrs. OTWO: Yes.
  
  OTWO: And do you agree that in a case like Janet Jackson's, information about the beliefs wasn't enough? She had to see how the teachings were manipulated by her husband to allow such treatment of women.

  Mrs. OTWO: Yes, I guess so.
  
  OTWO: So maybe you understand your husband a little better. I gathered information only from the religion I converted to, not checking with outsiders with another point of view. I had to be fully immersed in the lifestyle before I could see how the teaching were manipulated to control members.
  
  Mrs. OTWO: That's not the same at all.
  
  OTWO: Just tell me what the differences are then. The Lutheran school could be wrong, but you admit the nephew needs to be exposed to outside information. People might misunderstand a lifestyle based on a completely different set of beliefs, but you admit that Janet benefited from seeing the lifestyle. A huge difference for someone like you would be not knowing any other lifestyle to compare it to, but Janet did and this nephew is learning about different lifestyles.
  
  Well, that shut Mrs. OTWO down on that conversation. But not so hard as it did in the past. She stopped talking about the thing triggering discomfort, but we continued talking about unrelated things. In the past, she would have to go to full silence.
  
  
  
  
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  28

  QFR - Posting JW publications on a personal website/social media

  by Listener in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following is a qfr from the april, 2018 watchtower.

  just a couple of articles back the organization was explaining how jws need to be encouraging and even when admonishing congregations jesus would start out with encouraging words.

  we see none of this in the qfr, rather, it is heavy handed and legally incorrect.. why is it not permissible to post publications of jehovah’s witnesses on a personal website or on social media?.

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  OnTheWayOut

  WOW, you guys are nailing this one.
  Flipper, Stillin, Slidin Fast, YES YES YES- No room for commentary, discussion, evaluation or disagreement if you just read it at Watchtower's page.

  They are so (almost) straightforward with this- warning members that their material will be used to sow doubts. You know all the 20-somethings and below will get curious at reading that (if they ever read Watchtower stuff) and many will go see what those "other" sites have to say.
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  28

  JW's on my front sidewalk

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so last weekend, the jw's ring the bell and my wife answers.

  we live in a heavily spanish neighborhood but don't really speak spanish.

  i thought my wife was quite clear that she is a "sister" to them, but maybe the one in charge of the group didn't get the message.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Punk, they will say that this guy said they rape children as an initiation, but they set him straight on how they abhor and do all to prevent abuse. Thanks for a laugh.