Patriot,
I had a feeling that's where you were going with this. I think sometimes people are so eager to believe a story, even an enthusiastically exagerrated one, that they don't realize they are inadvertantly promoting a myth. Like you, I do believe preaching was being done AROUND THE PERIMETER. Did a guy hauling a bucket also offer a scripture or two verbally as he went about his work? Maybe. I don't know. If so, was the guy offering a scripture necessarily a witness? Maybe. He/she could have been of any faith variety. To presume that the only people offering words of encouragement from the scriptures were ONLY witnesses is incredibly naive. The perimeter was lined with people offering all sorts of encouragement. Simply watching the news, one could see that much. I can see why you have to rein in some of these dramatic re-enactments. I admire the work done by people like yourself. I appreciate your efforts and thank you deeply. I think I'd be a bit frustrated with people whose enthusiasm has gotten the better of them and as a result, they greatly over-exaggerate their role, especially if I had been in the trenches as you had.
Witnesses and other religious groups were likely at the perimeter of the site. Some witnesses may have even been working the site in an official capacity. However, the thought of a bunch of people randomly wandering around behind police lines to offer literature is not only a horrifying thought, it would only sully the reputation of the group as it would show absolutely no regard for the integrity of a crime scene in which thousands were killed. Let alone the inherent danger of traipsing through a smoldering, infectious, dangerous environment and getting underfoot of those laboring in horrible conditions- which is just unthinkable. That would only lower the public opinion of a group and it's cause. Not only is it implausible, it's downright insulting. If I were among a group of people who made claims that could even suggest such a thing, I'd turn to my fellow group mates and encourage them to be specific as they would be injuring the groups reputation, not enhancing it.
So...witnesses on the perimeter, witnesses involved in an official capacity. That's as special as any other group on the perimeter or any other religion represented by a site worker. I'd even say a little less impressive, in my opinion, as I think furthering ones own cause by trying to gain converts after a massive tragedy by using it to ones own agenda is simply incredibly manipulative and inappropriate. However, since I don't want to totally discredit the motives of some people who, for some strange reason, honestly believed that they were offering comfort (if you pretend there isn't that whole armageddon thing).
Nytele, just understand that Patriot- who was in the trenches- would prefer it if you would not allow visits to the perimeter to take on mythic proportions. Also, it would be in the best interest of your group and it's reputation to be clear that you did not violate a crime scene.
detective
JoinedPosts by detective
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26
Passes for Ground Zero
by Patriot instarting tomorrow the only way to have access to the viewing platforms that were built in order to let visitors have a "closer" look at the ruins at gz is by obtaining a "pass" being handed out every day early in the morning.. this to accomadate the large crowds and demands to view the ruins.. if you dont get a pass to be able to go up the 13ft.platform which can accomadate about 400 people at a time, then you have to view the ruins from the perimeter established.. i wanted to post this info.
in order to keep showing everyone that the wt boasts of having jws walking "around the debris" talking to others about the "truth" is a lie.. as you can see the closest that you can get is only through one of the viewing platforms-and now only with a pass.. and no freddy, i'm not talking about standing next to the bank and streching out your neck as far up as you can.. mav.-
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detective
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Passes for Ground Zero
by Patriot instarting tomorrow the only way to have access to the viewing platforms that were built in order to let visitors have a "closer" look at the ruins at gz is by obtaining a "pass" being handed out every day early in the morning.. this to accomadate the large crowds and demands to view the ruins.. if you dont get a pass to be able to go up the 13ft.platform which can accomadate about 400 people at a time, then you have to view the ruins from the perimeter established.. i wanted to post this info.
in order to keep showing everyone that the wt boasts of having jws walking "around the debris" talking to others about the "truth" is a lie.. as you can see the closest that you can get is only through one of the viewing platforms-and now only with a pass.. and no freddy, i'm not talking about standing next to the bank and streching out your neck as far up as you can.. mav.-
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detective
I think I understand what you are saying. I suspect that the people "at ground zero" were actually preaching at the perimeter where it was acceptable for them to be without jeopardizing a crime scene. In other words, they weren't wading around behind crime scene lines, they were at the perimeter speaking to those guarding the scene. This sounds about right. Would you say this is correct?
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Passes for Ground Zero
by Patriot instarting tomorrow the only way to have access to the viewing platforms that were built in order to let visitors have a "closer" look at the ruins at gz is by obtaining a "pass" being handed out every day early in the morning.. this to accomadate the large crowds and demands to view the ruins.. if you dont get a pass to be able to go up the 13ft.platform which can accomadate about 400 people at a time, then you have to view the ruins from the perimeter established.. i wanted to post this info.
in order to keep showing everyone that the wt boasts of having jws walking "around the debris" talking to others about the "truth" is a lie.. as you can see the closest that you can get is only through one of the viewing platforms-and now only with a pass.. and no freddy, i'm not talking about standing next to the bank and streching out your neck as far up as you can.. mav.-
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detective
Okay, Nytele, then I second this question: in what capacity was your friend there? when was your friend there? These are important questions as they help us understand the veracity of the claims that on site preaching work was being done and when. For example, I don't doubt that there were/are witness emergency personnel who responeded. I don't doubt that there were witness employees of the trade center. I don't doubt that during the immediate aftermath, as debris was raining down, that more than a few witnesses ran for their lives as did everyone else.
However, I think everyone can agree that the site is a crime scene. Now I'm having a hard time understanding the capacity that your friend was on the site in. Can you explain? I don't think it would do much for their reputation to think they'd violate that crime scene and risk potential evidence corruption to share a few scriptures any more than they'd violate any other murder scene. However, if you tell me your friend was was an emergency worker authorized to be on site and happened to preach, then I'd buy that. Of course, there would also be a number of other religions also represented in that case. I do know that grief counselors were located nearby but not on site directly.
Can you explain a bit please? -
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Passes for Ground Zero
by Patriot instarting tomorrow the only way to have access to the viewing platforms that were built in order to let visitors have a "closer" look at the ruins at gz is by obtaining a "pass" being handed out every day early in the morning.. this to accomadate the large crowds and demands to view the ruins.. if you dont get a pass to be able to go up the 13ft.platform which can accomadate about 400 people at a time, then you have to view the ruins from the perimeter established.. i wanted to post this info.
in order to keep showing everyone that the wt boasts of having jws walking "around the debris" talking to others about the "truth" is a lie.. as you can see the closest that you can get is only through one of the viewing platforms-and now only with a pass.. and no freddy, i'm not talking about standing next to the bank and streching out your neck as far up as you can.. mav.-
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detective
Well, aside from the fact that you can't prove what you are saying Nytele, there is every reason to believe that they were NOT there. Have you any photographic evidence- or any evidence for that matter, to support your claims?
On a side note, if some reason they actually were there, they either had their sleeves rolled up and were doing the recovery work or they were a nuisance or hindrance to that process.
So, either support your claims Nytele or accept that you can't and move on.
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Evidence that the WTS Claims to be Inspired
by Lionel_P_Hartley inmuch evidence has been provided to demonstrate that the wts is a false prophet even though jws will say anything to deny this unpleasant fact.
generally they act and teach explicitly that the gb speaks for god - that it is is god's sole channel of communication - but also claim that the gb is not inspired.
that is a distinction without a difference.. this has caused you know to be on the lookout for jw teachings "channeled" to him by the slave but which are without a bible basis.
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detective
Yo,
which scriptures were these apostles studying? Would that be the old testament? Certainly it isn't the bible in the form we see it today- so what scriptures were they studying? -
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Is Watchtower Literature inspired?
by YoYoMama inthe question.
is all watchtower articles, books, etc.
inspired by god as the bible was?
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detective
Yoyo: "Similarily, the Faithful and Discreet Slave represents Jehovah here on earth."
Really? I'm well aware that they maintain this is true. However, I just haven't seen anything that supports this theory. Particularly when you consider that they posit they are the ONLY ones representing Jehovah here on earth. So, would you like to explain why someone should accept their assertion?
By the way, I like the example of the elected official and his spokesman. I thought it was interesting but I'm not sure I can move past the image of voting for God, impeaching God or selecting Nadar as god.
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Practice of JW concerning Facial Hair
by Reborn2002 inim relatively new to the board, but i wanted other people's opinions.. growing up in "the organization" i pretty much blindly adhered to all instruction as a teenager.. as i got a little older, as most here im sure, i began to see how some practices were imposed on the flock without any biblical backing.. one that bugged the living hell out of me was the restriction of being allowed to grow facial hair.. i was literally removed from carrying the mics and reading at bookstudy because my sideburns were too long and i wanted to grow a goatee, hence i often showed up with stubble.
i was taken to the back room and told i was being "too worldly.
" when i questioned the elders why it was unallowed by the society and that i wanted scriptural evidence and backing for their imposed regulations, i was scoffed at and told i should do as i am told.. i told them where they could stick their "priviledges" .
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detective
I found this on the Boston Globe website:
. http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/003/living/Hairy_situations+.shtml
Hairy situations
By Tina Cassidy, Globe Staff, 1/3/2002
There are those with infamous facial hair: Satan, Hitler, Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden.
There are those with revolutionary beards: Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Osama bin Laden.
And religious beards: Christ, Moses, Zeus, Rastafarians, Amish, Sikhs, Jews, Muslims ... and Osama bin Laden.
While statistics show that 90 percent of men shave at least once a day, those who don't choose not to for a reason, conscious or otherwise. That's what Allan Peterkin, a Toronto-based psychiatrist, posits in his new book, ''One Thousand Beards: A Cultural History of Facial Hair.''
''The gesture of changing one's face is simply too powerful to be strictly conscious,'' Peterkin writes. ''The rather scant psychiatric and psychoanalytical literature available on the meanings of facial hair reveals that these decisions are based on notions of sex, death, aggression, rebellion, narcissism, damaged self-esteem, fetishism, and gender anxiety. ... Simply put, beards suggest power, dominance, and virility.''
Historically, beards have been used to distinguish one group from its enemy. And evolutionists believe the beard gives more prominence to the jaw and teeth, all the better for baring those pearly whites in a fight. We won't even get into Freud's theory, which, of course, involves the nether regions of the body and shaving's being akin to castration (Freud had a beard). Then there's the ''gay beard.'' For more on that, you'll have to buy the book.
Beards have also been symbols of ''grief, loss, bereavement, unemployment,'' Peterkin writes - which may explain Drew Bledsoe's scruffy new look. The same could be true for Al Gore's beard - no more close shaves for him.
''I think for most men it's transition,'' Peterkin says, adding that Gore was the perfect example of that. ''Middle-aged, wanting to change careers, wanting to change his public face, and he was a little heavier, so maybe the beard was concealing his jowls.''
So what's next for facial hair?
Trend spotters ''predict a big return of the mustache,'' the author says over the phone from Toronto. ''It's a bit surprising. It hasn't been around since the '70s. These things do cycle. I really can't explain why that would be. In the '70s the mustache took on a smarmy singles application, and it also may have become a gay or bisexual identifier. That's why some think it fell into disfavor.''
But the mustache is already visible in some Gap and Kenneth Cole ads, while college kids have been having mustache-growing contests.
''Often these things start on college campuses,'' Peterkin says. ''And the stubble look is back, but less calculated than the Don Johnson variety.'' It all seems to fit in somehow with the longer, shaggy hair men have been sporting.
What about goatees? They're out. ''Too ubiquitous,'' Peterkin proclaims. ''It's like the middle-aged ponytail.'' And in some club circles, beards have taken on a twist. Kids ''are doing some interesting stuff, like the ancient Syrians and Persians, dyeing it, threading it with beads. They're reinventing the minibeard.''
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Scare tactics, holidays, the boogie man ...
by terafera incoming upon this site has really got me thinking.
i have been mulling over things all day that normally i think to myself.
just wondering what your opinions are on some of these subjects.. 1. holidays.
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detective
"Several brothers and sisters worked in the World Trade Centre. One brother walked into the building, put his briefcase down and decided to go for breakfast. The buildings collapsed while he was out."
Hmmm... That was one long coffee break. Perhaps the message here is not that Jah favors witnesses, but rather Jah favors SLACKERS. This is good news, as it means there may be hope for me... yeehaw, I'm saved!!
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Answers to all your questions.
by dmouse incheck out this site:.
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/50questions.htm.
it author sets out many common questions that 'jw-haters'(his description) ask jws and attempts to answer them.
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detective
Hmmm. I don't really agree that Hector does a fine job when it comes to dealing with specific questions about the organizations doctrines. In short, his answer is pretty much that other religions screw up too. Apply that response repeatedly and you've got a pretty good idea of how this guy comes to the conclusion that his organizations doctrines are not worthy of scrutiny. It's weak, to say the least. And I was particularly interested in his conclusion in an example of a man needing blood, receiving it and still dying being a RESULT of a transfusion. Interesting. As we all know, transfusions can be risky and a person can be adversely affected. However his example cites the cause of death as a result of the transfusion. Perhaps he might want to clarify his postion. He is citing an example that does not clearly cite complications from transfusion as cause of death but pretends it does. It very well could be that the man died because the transfusions simply were not enough to save him. In which case, obviously the transfusion would not be the cause of death it just wasn't enough to save him. His example is flawed. If he wants to cite a situation where a complication arising from a transfusion causes death then fine. If he wants me to believe that a trauma patient (car accident) receives a transfusion but it does not save his life and therefore the transfusion caused his death- he's just plain confused.
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Daily text - Matt 26:41
by YoYoMama inmatt 26:41 keep on the watch and pray continually, that you may not enter into temptation.. commentary: .
what would help us to keep on the watch?
while in the garden of gethsemane shortly before his arrest, jesus told three of his apostles the above.
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detective
Todays score: one sentence, bible
one paragraph, watchtower.He who kneels before the organization, does remind us daily of where his loyalty lies.