Answers to all your questions.

by dmouse 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • dmouse
    dmouse

    Check out this site:

    http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/50questions.htm

    It author sets out many common questions that 'JW-haters'(his description) ask JWs and attempts to answer them. The answers are simplistic, full of twisted logic, and often point to other religion's mistakes to cover their own (see esp the defense of 1975). But hey, at least he's had a go.

    Let us not be accused of not letting them put over their point of view; in fact let us encourage it - the more they try and defend themselves the clearer it becomes to an impartial observer what a misguided cult they are.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    I did not see the 1975 question, because I don't want to read it all, but I did like the reasoning on this question. Looks like he/she tried to avoid the whole question. Maybe YoYoMama and this author need to meet.

    49. Since Jesus is claiming to be the "first and the last" in Rev 22:12,13 and since Isa records Jehovah as saying, "I am the first and the last; apart from me there is no God", who is "the first and the last"?
    Reply: Let us look at this reasoning:
    We can look at it like this:

    Jehovah is the first and the last
    Jesus is the first and the last
    Jesus is Jehovah
    But then, with the same reasoning, we can say:

    All dogs have four legs
    My cat has four legs
    My cat is a dog
    When we look closely at the use of the term "first and the last," we see that it has limitations when used of Jesus. When used of Jesus, it always in reference to his death and resurrection. We must remember that God cannot die (Hab 1:12 NJB). Jesus however is the "the firstborn from the dead." Interestingly, the Codex Alexandrinus [usually indicated by the letter "A"], uses the word "firstborn" instead of "first" at Rev 1:17 and 2:8, but at Rev 22:13, where it refers to the Alpha and Omega, this codex uses the word "first" instead of "firstborn." Even this scribe recognized the difference. As we have seen above with the word "saviour", simply sharing titles does not make you the same person.
    I often get people who try to find similarities in what Jesus and Jehovah did, and the remarking that this should mean that they are the same being. But should this be the case? Let us take alook at Joseph. The NKJV MacArthur Study provides the following of similarities between Joseph and Jesus:
    Both Joseph and Jesus were A SHEPHERD OF HIS FATHERS SHEEP (Gen
    37:2/Jn 10:11,27-29)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were LOVED DEARLY BY THEIR FATHER (Gen 37:3/Mt
    3:17
    Both Joseph and Jesus were HATED BY THEIR BROTHERS (Gen 37:4/Jn 7:45)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were SENT BY FATHER TO BROTHERS (Gen
    37:13,14/Heb 2:11)
    Both Joseph and Jesus had OTHERS TO HARM THEM (Gen 37:20/Jn 11:53)
    Both Joseph and Jesus had ROBES TAKEN FROM THEM (Gen 37:23/Jn
    19:23,24)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were TAKEN TO EGYPT (Gen 37:26/Mt 2:14,15)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were SOLD FOR A PRICE OF A SLAVE (Gen 37:28/Mt
    26:15)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were TEMPTED (GEN 39:7/mT 4:1)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were FALSELY ACCUSED (Gen 39:16-18/Mt 26:59,60)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were BOUND IN CHAINS (Gen 39:20/Mt 27:2)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were PLACED WITH 2 OTHER PRISONERS, ONE WHO
    WAS
    SAVED AND THE OTHER LOST (Gen 40:2,3/Lu 23:32)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were EXALTED AFTER SUFFERING (Gen 41:41/Phil
    2:9-11)
    Both Joseph and Jesus were BOTH 30 YEARS OLD AT THE BEGINNING OF
    PUBLIC RECOGNITION
    (Gen 41:46/Lu 3:23)
    Both Joseph and Jesus BOTH WEPT (Gen 42:24; 45:2, 14, 15; 46:29/Jn
    11:35)
    Both Joseph and Jesus FORGAVE THOSE WHO WRONGED THEM (Gen
    45:1-15/Lu
    23:34)
    Both Joseph and Jesus SAVED THEIR NATION (Gen 45:7/Mt 1:21)
    Both Joseph and Jesus had WHAT MEN DID TO HURT THEM, GOD TURNED
    TO
    GOOD (Gen 50:20/ 1Cor 2:7,8

    Does this mean Jesus must be Joseph?

    "Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford

    Jeremy's Hate Mail Hall Of Fame.
    http://hometown.aol.com/onjehovahside/ and [email protected]

  • dmouse
    dmouse

    The 1975 stuff is under a blue coloured link but here it is to make it easier:

    http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/1975.htm

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    Actually I think Hector does a fine job. I wish there were more JWs out there like Hector, willing to defend their faith. I see him AOL a lot too.

  • JT
    JT

    A message to me from someone trying to put forth that JW's have claimed to be prophets (hence the reason he simply posts quotes where we seem to say such), so they must then be false prophets:
    "The Nations shall know…", 1971:
    There is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us. Jehovah has raised up a genuine "prophet" within our generation. Regardless of how Christendom views or regards this group of anointed witnesses of Jehovah, the time must come, and that shortly, when those making up Christendom will know that really a "prophet" of Jehovah was among them."
    Reply: Often when the WTS uses the word "prophet" concerning themselves, you will notice that the word is surrounded by quotation marks, indicating not a seer, but a prophet in a quasi-sense. It is just like the Billy Graham is called a prophet (see amazon.com's "A Prophet With Honor : The Billy Graham Story" by William Martin)
    and another Church leader, Klemp (see amazon.com's "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet"
    by Harold Klemp). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language uses the word *prophet* also as "A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression" and "The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause." This is how the word prophet is used of these men in a quasi-sense, just like JW's use it.

    If this is the best that he can do then he is in trouble – he compares the FDS to being on the same level of “Prophet” as billy Graham-

    It that is the case then their views on the bible carry no more weight then billy’s and therefore how can questioning their explanations be speaking against god since they write and predict and speculate on the same level with billy graham

    They want to have the respect of a biblical prophet , but want to leeway of a billy graham when they get it wrong

    Yu got to love it

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    I agree with Cygnus,

    A spirited defense worthy of a good read.

    He does unfortunately fall into a similar trap that WTS researchers do, and that is that he often ignores the evidence of the majority opinion of scholars and dwells on the ‘quotable’ of minority opinions, without acknowledging this to the reader.

    For example he quotes C19th author Bullfinch in his defense of the literal number of the ‘144,000’ as described in the Revelation. Bullfinch is entirely in the minority over this issue, and apart from those theologically attached to ‘end-times’ hope, very few experts alive today, or his contemporaries, would agree with this view.

    An interesting recent faux-pas made by WTS Writing was contained in the recent ‘Daniel’ book, when evidence was presented to bolster this chronology. A quotation in support of WTS chronology was used from the book by John Walvoord - ‘Armaggedon, Oil And The Middle East Crisis’. I was amazed to see this in the book, as Valvoord is an amateur prophet who is even outclassed by YK, and his interpretations of current events which culminate in a rapture for the faithful while the earth is pounded to pieces by God, are plainly unhinged. When I bought this to the attention of an acquaintance in Writing, his eyes swung heavenward as if to say, ‘Oh God! We have done it again’.

    The moral of the tale is, if you want to prove something enough, there is always something written by somebody to help you. Flat earth, no problem. Barbara Streisand is an alien, look it up. The apostle Paul was a cigar salesman…you get my drift.

    Another failing of the WTS researcher is to appeal to outdated information. An example of this is in his defense of the ‘607’ chronology in which he quotes an Assyrian researcher who wrote in 1956. The past 45 years, much has been achieved in the way of research in this field and though not an exact science as yet, the weight of evidence seems to clearly undermine the ‘607’ theology of the WTS.

    That having been said, at least the person involved has offered some sort of evidence for his beliefs rather than take the usual JW stance of ‘We have the Truth whatever you might say’, and I salute him for that. He has certainly done more research to defend his views than many of us have that oppose them.

    Best regards - HS

  • detective
    detective

    Hmmm. I don't really agree that Hector does a fine job when it comes to dealing with specific questions about the organizations doctrines. In short, his answer is pretty much that other religions screw up too. Apply that response repeatedly and you've got a pretty good idea of how this guy comes to the conclusion that his organizations doctrines are not worthy of scrutiny. It's weak, to say the least. And I was particularly interested in his conclusion in an example of a man needing blood, receiving it and still dying being a RESULT of a transfusion. Interesting. As we all know, transfusions can be risky and a person can be adversely affected. However his example cites the cause of death as a result of the transfusion. Perhaps he might want to clarify his postion. He is citing an example that does not clearly cite complications from transfusion as cause of death but pretends it does. It very well could be that the man died because the transfusions simply were not enough to save him. In which case, obviously the transfusion would not be the cause of death it just wasn't enough to save him. His example is flawed. If he wants to cite a situation where a complication arising from a transfusion causes death then fine. If he wants me to believe that a trauma patient (car accident) receives a transfusion but it does not save his life and therefore the transfusion caused his death- he's just plain confused.

  • JanH
    JanH

    From that site:

    Jehovah is the first and the last
    Jesus is the first and the last
    Jesus is Jehovah
    But then, with the same reasoning, we can say:

    All dogs have four legs
    My cat has four legs
    My cat is a dog

    Well, no, not by the same reasoning. It depends on whether "first and last" is a class with more than one possible member. The class of four-legged animals is undeniably a big one, which is why the second argument is a classic fallacy. The first argument is valid and sound, assuming that only one being can be "first and last", which do not appear to be an unreasonable assumption.

    - Jan
    --
    "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets

  • JT
    JT

    Detective

    I have to agree with you- his line of reasoning is very weak

    he condemns Rhodes and rightly so for not dogging other folks who have predicted the end- he points out that Rhodes refers to NONJW as speculating while when JW do it he calls it "Prediction"

    but then in the next 50 lines of text he turns around and does the same thing by saying WT only does "Speculation" while others are doing Predictions-

    then he really makes me laugh as he tries to explain away the Title Prophet - you got to love it-

    he wants to equate the FDS with billy graham when he is called a prophet- since when did the mouth pc of god look to the Agents of Satan as an example to follow smile

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step
    Hmmm. I don't really agree that Hector does a fine job when it comes to dealing with specific questions about the organizations doctrines.

    I am sure that Cygnus is aware that the person involved is attempting to defend the indefensible over many issues that he outlines.

    I took Cygnus comment to mean, perhaps I misunderstood, that he does a good job of what he has tried to do, that is to defend the indefensible. In this, he displays a far superior attitude to many JW's who will not even discuss the issues that he attempts to deal with.

    Best regards -- HS

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