Thanks for the clarifications from everyone. The list is valuable, no doubt, and a modified form of it is going into my toolbox.
As dozy alludes to, the trouble with these "cult checklists," and there are many of them out there, is that they're often heavily biased towards one group. What we seem to see quite often is a former cult member, disgruntled with the group they just left, thinking "what didn't I like about that group I just left?" And then writing it down in a list. I'm afraid intelligent JW's should be able to see this, too.
Also, "cult" just carries too much baggage. I think using that word instantly puts people on the defensive, for obvious reasons. Personally I prefer the term "high-control group." If we can convince someone that their thinking, actions, lives are being controlled by others who have no right to do so, if we can convince them that the claim to authority of those doing the controlling is invalid, we go a long ways towards opening their eyes. For this reason, even though Hassan's research started out heavily biased towards Moonies, the way it's evolved towards focusing on control makes it effective.
under_believer
JoinedPosts by under_believer
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39
Do the JW'S know what a cult really is?
by ButtLight ini didnt!
but again i was quite young.. i know this stuff has been posted in the past.....but for the heck of it, i wanted to see what others believe cults consist of.....so i googled this.
http://www.americanreligion.org/cultwtch/whatis.html.
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under_believer
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IS THERE EVEN A SINGLE, VERIFIABLE EXAMPLE OF.........?
by Terry in...the fulfillment of a prophecy made in the old testament?.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1991/1/1land91.html.
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under_believer
The Witnesses hang their OT prophecy-fulfillment hats on Daniel's supposed prediction of Cyrus, and of course everything that they, and in fact the NT writers, say was pointing towards Jesus.
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Do the JW'S know what a cult really is?
by ButtLight ini didnt!
but again i was quite young.. i know this stuff has been posted in the past.....but for the heck of it, i wanted to see what others believe cults consist of.....so i googled this.
http://www.americanreligion.org/cultwtch/whatis.html.
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under_believer
I am deeply interested in this subject. Convincing my wife that the cult is a cult is one of my top priorities. So thanks for posting this list. I do have some concerns, though. Most or all of these points do apply to Witnesses, but I think this list is problematic to show to Witnesses because there is wiggle room in some of the terms.
1. Members swear total allegiance to an all-powerful leader who they believe to be the Messiah.
Well we know that they venerate the Governing Body and the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" in that way, but they don't hold any belief about them being specifically the Messiah. So while this point applies, it is worded wrong for Witnesses to accept it.
2. Rational thought is discouraged or forbidden.
One only need point at the literature about the evils of independent thinking to prove this one.
3. The cult's recruitment techniques are often deceptive.
Hmm... I don't think most Witnesses would agree with this one. I'm not even sure I do. You can find out anything you want about them by asking, they don't deliberately hide anything about themselves from "Bible studies". Of course there are things you find out after you've been in for a few months, but it's not like they're official points of doctrine that were hidden on purpose.
4. The cult weakens the follower psychologically by making him or her depend upon the group to solve his or her problems.
ABSOLUTELY. No doubt. And easy to prove too--how much literature says, to solve problems, you should study the Society's literature more, go out in service more, pray more, go to meetings more?
5. The cults manipulate guilt to their advantage.
Again this one is easy to prove. The Witness judicial system is entirely based on guilt. The Witness moral code is based on guilt. The talks from the platform (the ones where the brother says "did anyone's toes get stepped on?") are based on guilt.
6. The cult leader makes all the career and life decision of the members.
This one is heavily true, but it might be problematic for active Witnesses. We know this one is true, with their not-so-veiled "suggestions" about who one should marry, how much school one should get, what jobs are appropriate, what entertainment and recreation (and how much!) one should "partake" in. But the way this sentence is written it sounds like the elders directly make all these decisions for the Witnesses and that's not true, it's more indirect and much more insidious.
7. Cults exist only for their own material survival and make false promises to work to improve society.
This is true, to an external observer, but it would be hard to prove that to a Witness. They think they're saving the world and doing a "life-saving work."
8. Cult members often work fulltime for the group for little or no pay.
That one is just right out on the surface. Witnesses can accept that one easily, it's impossible to deny.
9. Cult members are isolated from the outside world and any reality testing it could provide.
This one, unfortunately, I don't think is true at all. The scary thing about this is that many Witnesses aren't shielded from the outside world and yet they stay Witnesses. By definition, they're going in service, going to school, to work, etc, around "worldly" people.
10. Cults are antiwoman, antichild, and antifamily.
Again this is true, but the "sisters" in the hall don't see it that way. Just like so many Muslim women are brainwashed to believe that they misogyny built into that religion is a benefit to women, so Witnesses do too. They don't see disfellowshipping as breaking up families; they think the one leaving who broke up the family.
11. Cults are apocalyptic and believe themselves to be the remnant who will survive the soon-approaching end of the world.
This is another one that is self-evident.
12. Many cults follow an "ends justify the means" philosophy.
Hmm... I think it would be hard to convince any Witnesses of this one. Could someone could help out with some examples of this?
13. Cults, particularly in regard to their finances, are shrouded in secrecy.Definitely. No Witness knows anything about the Society's finances. There are deceptive financial practices at assemblies, for example.
14. There is frequently an aura of or potential for violence around cults.
I have a hard time with this one. Unless you're talking about "emotional violence." I don't think that the Witnesses have an aura of or potential for physical violence around them.
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Oprah Winfrey
by darkuncle29 in.
i was just watching tv, and the thought occured to me, "is oprah winfrey a scientologist?
" i know some people will automatically take offense at that acusation, but isn't it possible, and i thought the question would be interesting to ponder..
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under_believer
I hate Oprah Winfrey. I used to have a sort of grudging respect for her until she started supporting and promoting that "The Secret" book with its retarded "Law of Attraction" claptrap.
Now I can't stand to look at her. -
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The chronicles of Narnia and Harry Potter
by uuus2b1 inlast year, i bought a few movies for my 16 year old niece when i went on vacation, among them was the movie "the chronicles of narnia (the lion, the witch and the wardrobe).
a few days later my brother called and said that he would like if i came by to pick up the movie as they would not allow their daughter to watch that movie.
(my brother is an elder) when i went to his house the movie was left virtually the same place that i had left it.
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under_believer
Funny story.
At the last Circuit Assembly our CO quoted Lewis' Screwtape Letters. This is a Christian work, make no mistake, but it's a fictional account of a conversation between two demons (!!!) about how to turn people away from Jesus. It was meant to make people realize what kind of behaviors make them vulnerable to falling away from Christ.
But at the end of the day it's still a story about two demons.
And the CO quoted it. At the Circuit Assembly. From the platform.
So flash forward a few months. We are having a shepherding call (that is a whole other story in and of itself which I will tell you someday.) The elder running the thing was pontificating about how horrible entertainment had gotten these days. And he mentions Narnia as an example of how the occult is really taking over the world.
Instantly my daughter, who I'd taken to the movie just the weekend before, says "OOOH I love that movie! It is one of the best movies I've ever seen!"
A couple of moments pass and he says "Really?" And looks at me with this look of horrified surprise.
So I say "Do you know anything about that movie?"
"Well, I've only seen the commercial on TV. I know it is about witches, and magic. And talking animals... It definitely isn't entertainment most Christians would choose."
Gotcha.
"Did you know the movie was adapted from a book?" He shakes his head no. "The book was written by a man named C.S. Lewis, have you ever heard of him?" "No." "Well he was among other things a Christian apologetic writer. Do you know what a Christian apologetic is?" "No."
At this point I know that I'm being an asshole, but he really got my hackles up saying that in front of my daughter, and I'm angry. So I press on.
After furnishing this elder (he's a janitor, by the way) with the definition of Christian Apology, I say: "So he wrote a lot of pro-Christian books and stories that were designed to illustrate to people various facets of faith and belief. Narnia was specifically written to make the story of Jesus' sacrifice more accessible to young readers. It's basically a retelling of Jesus' story, with the forces of evil, and a noble sacrifice to save a life, and even a rebirth some time later. It even has a final battle of good versus evil at the end. C.S. Lewis was not a demonized writer. Did you notice the CO quoted him at the last Circuit Assembly?"
"No."
"Screwtape letters? Wormwood?"
"No."
"And lastly they make you read Narnia in school so it's hardly a controversial choice of reading material. Didn't you have to read it?" (He's in his late 40's/early 50's.)
"No, " -get this- " I was home schooled."
He let Narnia drop at that point. And moved on to, I dunno, personal study or something. My wife and kids witnessed this whole exchange and I was proud of myself until I realized I had just arrogantly demonstrated my intellectual superiority to a 50 year old janitor that never went to a classroom-style school. :( Then I felt bad. -
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I have no mouth, and I must scream
by under_believer inplease indulge a little whining.
i don't go out in service--i don't comment.
they assign talks (once, one of the highlights of my existence) to me every couple of months.
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under_believer
Wow, a lot of varied responses. I appreciate all of the perspectives. Thank you.
The thing is, I AM close to my wife. We have had a lot of conversations about this. She knows me and knows how I feel about the Witnesses, the Society, and everything else. Perhaps I have not made it explicitly clear how horrible meetings make me feel, but I think she can tell since I'm a huge grouch on those days, dreading what is to come.
What I fear about the "not going anymore" approach is that she and everyone else in her congregation will see me as just another deadbeat dad who has abandoned his family spiritually. Word will get around (you know the rumor mill) and sooner or later all the people I grew up with will hear about it. Any time I run into anyone from my circuit, they'll know. Now, I won't be a deadbeat dad--but they will think I am. I shouldn't care what they think, but I do, so there it is.
I especially care what my wife thinks. She already resents me because I have "put the spiritual headship burden all on her." She loves me, but the resentment is there under the surface. I am afraid it always will be. She's a beautiful, intelligent, vivacious woman who I love and don't want to lose. I guess my logic is that perhaps by playing along for a while, supporting her at the meetings (since we have three young children who are a handful), I might be able to prevent any bridges from being burned. Bridges that can be crossed later, to help her see what I know about the faith of our birth.
And looking at it from another angle, a couple of times I'm manufactured excuse after excuse to avoid the meetings. Sick, working late, bad traffic on my commute, etc. I have successfully missed most meetings for almost a month this way. And afterwards my son looks up at me with his huge doe eyes full of concern and says "Daddy, when are you going to come to meetings with us again?" They don't see someone trying to escape from a cult. They see a family routine activity they've known their whole lives which the father is suddenly not taking part in anymore. Their feelings of abandonment are not indoctrinated, they're honest reactions from vulnerable children.
It's not as simple as "grow a set of balls." -
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Did you see anything Strange at the Memorial- if you went???
by Mad ini want to see if i imagined it!.
mad.
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under_believer
1) First time in a year the Kingdom Hall has been full. Not packed, not overflowing, just 90% of the seats were occupied. Usually it's 50 to 55% capacity.
2) The talk hasn't been updated for the new light of the "door to heaven" being opened back up.
3) Someone guzzled the entirety of one of the glasses of wine. Not talking a sip, here. This sucker was empty. Not sure if there were like 5 or 8 partakers, or one very thirsty partaker.
I wonder if serving alcohol in a place of public meeting violates state liquor control laws. -
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I have no mouth, and I must scream
by under_believer inplease indulge a little whining.
i don't go out in service--i don't comment.
they assign talks (once, one of the highlights of my existence) to me every couple of months.
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under_believer
Please indulge a little whining.
I cannot get out. I cannot get out. I will be dragged to meetings for at least the next 20 years. I don't go out in service--I don't comment. I'm still on the School, for whatever reason. They assign talks (once, one of the highlights of my existence) to me every couple of months. I always find an excuse and skip those meetings. Last talk, I couldn't find a credible excuse and actually ended up going and giving the talk. It was a Bible reading, something meaningless from Jeremiah. It's been so long since I gave a talk, almost two years, that my kids didn't know what was even going on. My son said "you're going up on the STAGE?" For all of my many faults I am a good public speaker and it went "well."
I had my mind made up to tell the conductor that I was quitting the School "for a while." Was going to use depression as my excuse (which is true enough, in all conscience.) Afterwards he came up, beaming, and told me what a great job I did, and said he was looking forward to my next talk. He was being sincere. He meant it. I couldn't do it--I couldn't say the words I needed to say. I couldn't make him feel that way. He will keep assigning talks. And I will keep disappointing him, and my wife.
I can't lose my parents. I can't lose my wife. I can't lose my kids. This means I can't speak up. I can't say what I know to be true. I have to bite my tongue and listen to the ridiculous statements, the self-aggrandizing lack of humility, the propaganda. I have to shut my mouth and watch the refuse drain into my kids' heads, with my only mitigation the occasional dose of reason I feed to them under the table when my wife isn't watching.
She doesn't even care about most of the doctrine, just the "spiritual" connection to God, and her family. Even so the forces holding her there are stronger than anything I can muster. I am dying inside, I am desperate, three times a week I am in a foul mood dreading what is coming. Three times a week! Almost half of my days are bad days.
To speak up, to really speak up, would be to give up everything I hold dear. Losing my parents, my wife, my kids, would be worse than what I'm enduring right now.
I cannot get out. I will never get out. -
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Why 1914 Won't Be Abandoned...
by deaconbluez in"crisis of conscience" pointed out a lot of the following:.
jehovah's witnesses simply can't abandon the 1914 teaching because it is too much of a pivotal date on which a major portion of their doctrinal and authority structure rests.
their belief system is tied with 1914 in the following ways:.
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under_believer
I guess it depends on what you mean by "abandoned." The teaching has already for all intents and purposes been "abandoned." They hardly talk about it. Nobody knows how it's calculated. Will they explicitly come out and reject the date in their literature? Of course not. That would be admitting to being wrong, utterly wrong, and True Believers don't do that.
You think the Society's claim to authority depends on 1914. Perhaps from an official standpoint, as to what they've actually published as doctrine, that's true. Practically, however, in the trenches, nobody looks to 1914 as having any importance as to the Society's claim to authority.
My mom is a typical example. There are millions more like her. For her, the Society's authority is proven by "their fruits." The "love among themselves." The teachings (no Hell, no Trinity, Paradise Earth, etc.) By a gut feeling she has as to its truth, which is always strongest around Memorial and District Convention time. By their perceived success in the ministry work. By various anecdotes she's absorbed of angelic assistance and the "outworking" of Holy Spirit. By her strong disinclination to doubt, provided by her Watchtower-given definition of Faith.
She wouldn't even care if they publicly rejected 1914 (even though they won't.)
1914 doesn't matter as much as you think. -
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"Watchtower" is a term from witchcraft NOT Scripture
by FuzzyPaul inhas anyone else ever noticed that there is no watchtower in scripture as part of any particular teaching but there is prominent use of watchtower in dungeons and dragons type games and forms of witchcraft including spells involving watchtower?
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/watchtower_%28magic%29.
and msn search for watchtower alone & with magic spell or occult or witchcraft.. ct russell was a 33rd degree freemason ( illuminati) nutcase who read books by guys that measured the lengths of the halls in pyramids to foretell the future by.
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under_believer
Ahh, the subliminal images. I was wondering when you'd work your way to the pareidolia. Well played.
What else are you holding back? I haven't read all of your mixed-font cut-and-paste, but have you gotten to "The Watchtower Study is a hypnotism session?"