it sounds rediculous, doesn't it?
jehovah promised the jews the land of canaan that was inhabited by many tribes.
he had the power to give it to them peacefully but instead got them to commit genocide, rape and pillage and destruction.
So, if child sacrifice was so bad in itself, then what did this thing about testing Abraham suggest? Also - was not nailing christ to the cross a child sacrifice in a sense ( I know, he was at least 30, but still the son of God...). Also, the Israelites fought some pretty vicious wars against people who did not sacrifice children - maybe they just worshipped cows or some such.
Double standards, anyone?
this is taken from a "new" scroll, discovered in the middle east in the 70s.
it is believed to be a dead sea scroll, or a scroll connected to the essenes.
it`s believed to be from the 1st century, and is referred to as "the angel scroll".
BTW - questions can be both rhetorical and sincere...
this is taken from a "new" scroll, discovered in the middle east in the 70s.
it is believed to be a dead sea scroll, or a scroll connected to the essenes.
it`s believed to be from the 1st century, and is referred to as "the angel scroll".
jw - again I am dissapointed that you do not "sight" any scripture...
regardless of how you feel about jehovah's organization--the true religion, one thing for sure, you will not escape the almighty jehovah's judgement right along with satan the devil and his destructive organization.
how will you save yourself and those who follow you...?
it's ashame that your energies could not be put to a more positive use.
Did you cite one, JW?
gotcha!!!
excuse my ignorance, and i've read on boards about the us not selling/inviting contributions issue, but do individuals jws in effect pay for the publications they give out?
if so, is that only for their magazines or for hardback books as well?
how is this organised, please?.
Is it possible that the good old WTBTS kind of screwed up when they did the "voluntary contribution for literature" thing? After all - they could have just paid the sales tax on it and kept the pump primed, so to speak...
It was my recollection way back in the 1970's that they actually charged the publishers say 20 cents for a 25 cent magazine; pioneers were charged maybe 10 cents for the same mag. Don't remember, but I think special pioneers and CO's got them for even less. You were actually supposed to MAKE a few cents when you "placed" this garbage.
The reality was that most publishers and even pioneers subscribed for far more mags and bought more books than they could ever realistically place and so subsidized the society printing presses. These excess literature items eventually got tossed and the CO would regularly caution the poor pubs against wasting the precious food...so of course we would just dump them on the nearest laundramat reading table.
James
do you think that there will come a time when the wts will be a thing of the past and people will look into their history books and say "oh yeah those jw's were around for over 120 years and now they are no longer around today in the year 20___?
" my friend thinks that jw's will not collapse and will probably get "stronger" with time.
i hope not because i am just sick of the whole wts and jw's religion.
Ha - ha: from Oroborous - and I quote:
No -- to the question.
(I won't bother to elaborate at this point why.)
my only comment is with regard to your comments in your post. if you don't have a vested interest and all that bothers you is the "my way of the highway" attitude about them, it seems funny that you would spend your time having anything to do with them including posting on a forum dedicated to discussing them.
* A: so, you just didn't bother? I agree with No, but wouldn't it be nice to know why? Matter of fact, that Fermat's Theorem thing that math science spent at least two hundred years trying to figure out - if he really had such a simple proof of it, but just couldn't write it in the margin of that book, then why didn't he write it down somewhere else? Maybe it was just a little joke on his friend Pascal...
* B: are you supporting/defending the society or are you disgusted with it? If neither is the case then it does seem funny that you would spend valuable time posting! (i.e. if you do not have some vested interest in the society - one way or another, then what is the point???) After all, you could conceivably either love or hate them but still not be so sure of their immediate demise.
I welcome the debate of this thread simply because this horror of a religion has denigrated so many people. It is good to give a thought as to what might eventually come of them - even if we cannot be sure.
James
i notice that they don't preach much door to door anymore.
i'm not the only one who notices this around here.. i was just wondering if they reached a point where they can't bring anyone to the org.
anymore, so all that counts for them is to keep going to their meetings and wait for armageddon.
Welcome under_believer. Did you actually say "I can't believe I am doing this?" Great pun!
Yes, I think we are seeing them go to ground in a basic survival mode. I think they will in fact survive for a long time, but are hurting badly.
The minority-third nation growth thing does seem to be their last ammunition reserve.
Did you see the other thread "Do you think the WTS will just die soon(sic)"? I think this one is closer to the money...
James
do you think that there will come a time when the wts will be a thing of the past and people will look into their history books and say "oh yeah those jw's were around for over 120 years and now they are no longer around today in the year 20___?
" my friend thinks that jw's will not collapse and will probably get "stronger" with time.
i hope not because i am just sick of the whole wts and jw's religion.
I think Serendipity wins over Danny in the beacon of reality area. Isn't this how the Shakers darwinated themselves?
WTS has always been able to bullsht out of most any false prophecy; only people like us on the board see the sillyness of such conundrums.
Most dubs are not like us - they are robots.
Having said,
I hope Danny is right more than I want a 1993 Ferrari 512TR.
a lot said here about fading, which is a good way for some to leave the cult under their particular circumstances.
my departure involved a 'fade' period of less than two years, pretty fast considering i went from being a locally prominent elder to being df'd for apostasy within that time period.
because my 'fall' was pretty swift and prominent, i was approached during the 'fade' ('79-'81) in one-on-one encounters by a handful of friends, mostly elders, who sincerely wanted to help me recover from my 'spiritual sickness' as they saw it.
Great story, Gregor. I had almost the same experience during the "helpful talk with a fallen elder" phase in 1980 as well. I told this guy (my age at 56 now) that we would both probably live to see them back off the generation bs for the same reasons. I got called a "false prophet" who was resisting Armaggedon. I just said - well, time will tell and we will still both probably live to see what really happens.
The reaction I got when doing some quiet inquiry after the new light was this: "James was wrong anyway because he just didn't want to wait on Jehovah".
Hope your friend can see a little more clearly than that!
do you think that there will come a time when the wts will be a thing of the past and people will look into their history books and say "oh yeah those jw's were around for over 120 years and now they are no longer around today in the year 20___?
" my friend thinks that jw's will not collapse and will probably get "stronger" with time.
i hope not because i am just sick of the whole wts and jw's religion.
I must reluctantly say probably not in our lifetimes. What could possibly bring such a thing about?
* Dummy R&F just all quit? Looks like many young will quit and thin them out but some will always be brainwashed.
* Government taxes them out of existence? Been tried - they just spun things around so they are not selling anything or have any employees.
* Run out of money? Maybe in about the year 2525, but they are about as rich as Warren Buffett for now, and still collecting money on all those investments. Already cutting back Bethel expenses and circling the wagons.
* Shamed our of existence by false prophecy/scandal? Don't think so - they made it through UN - gate, Draft Dodger - gate, 1975, Generation Change, etc. already. These seem to cause them to dip maybe 10-15% for a while but so far they have rebounded. Saw a sign in the quickmart the other day - "can't buy alchohol if you were not born by 1985". Young adults today in that org were not even born when the 1975 thing happened and could probably care less. The UN thing - it hurt, but they seem to have successfully lied their way out of it.
* Internet? Most serious challenge so far; but probably can still brainwash a good percentage that this is Satan's workshop and to avoid it like the plague. Just disfellowship for logging on...
What I think is that they are headed to a descending spiral to finally stabilize into something like the present day 7th Adventists. They will react to diminishing attendance by first a clamp-down (which we see now and is not apparantly working) followed by a gradual normalization into a less demanding fringe religion led by a younger GB. Thus, kind of like Adventism or Pentecostals. But in fact still around as a very rich and secretive org who delights in screwing with peoples lives. We may have, however, seen the last of prophetic dates for the future.
Pessimistic I know - but thats my honest call for now.
James
