Posts by borgfree

7

My attempt to join Touchstone

by borgfree in

jw
friends

i went to the touchstone site and filled out their registration form.

i thought if they were really open to discussions it might be interesting.

i do not have the registration post but the following is the correspondence that followed after i registered.. email from wrench:.

borgfree

I just received another email from Wrench and think it only fair to post it. I have not reply'ed and don't know if I will or not.

Skally, the url might be on this email, if not I will post it. I did not see your post before I started mine.

Hello Roy,

You stated:

Well, obviously Wrench, the scripture does not apply to me. I fully accept all of the teachings of the Christ. I would say that you and JWs do not, however. The Christ, Jesus, did not refuse to discuss scripture with anyone.

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Since we are of the conviction that God does not tolerate a sectarian Christianity, the converse to that is "one" acceptable religion. You at one time were evidently baptized and dedicated to what we perceive to be true Christianity, the teaching of the Christ. Since you have abandoned that and now are in opposition to those doctrines, from our standpoint, you would fit the description of 2 John 9-11. I can appreciate that you do not personally feel that it applies to you, but since we are inviting you into our forum, this is ultimately about how we would view you in relation to 2 John 9-11. This was not intended to insult you although I know it is difficult not to take something like this as personal, but it isn't, truly. You see we believe that 2 John would actually describe a class of people that Christians would not discuss scripture with and as is obvious, we would think you as being in that class.
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The Christ did not teach or even elude to many of the teachings of the JWs, such as 1914, great crowd being on earth, treating your father and or mother with contempt because they do not follow the dictates of some organization.

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Of course I would disagree with your assessments here to at least one degree or another. Since I know nothing of your personal life and what happened with your family I am not qualified to make evaluations in that regard.
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In fact he had a few things to say about children who do not honor their parents and children who were more concerned with giving to the temple rather than to their parents.

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Again I have no idea of what transpired so I can be of no help in your personal situation. I do, however, sympathize with your scenario.
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You can judge for yourself who is pushing ahead of the Christ, even putting an organization in the place of the Christ e.g.. "you must come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" The bible clearly says "there is salvation in no one else" referring to Jesus the Christ.

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I am fully convinced that the scriptures reveal Christianity to be an organization that has certain elements within it that we should be willing to submit to and obey. Autonomy is unscriptural, but, we are not here to debate that.
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I am very happy to be a born again Christian after 54 years of giving my loyalty to an organization. I have a personal relationship with the Christ.

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I am sorry to here of that decision against us. I feel you have made a grave error but I wont pursue it.
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I do not post a lot, and really couldn't care less if your forum accepts me or not. I registered with the intent of communicating with your members if your members truly had an open mind and were not enslaved by the commands of an organization. I see they are not, and that is your choice. I respect your right to do so.

I wish you well, not in your efforts to prop up an organization, but that you may truly learn the truth. John 14:6

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I too, wish you well for the future. Take care.

Best regards,
Wrench

Borgfree

7

My attempt to join Touchstone

by borgfree in

jw
friends

i went to the touchstone site and filled out their registration form.

i thought if they were really open to discussions it might be interesting.

i do not have the registration post but the following is the correspondence that followed after i registered.. email from wrench:.

borgfree

David,

My heart wasn't really in it, I was curious whether or not they would let a person join if I admitted my true beliefs.

aChristian,

Thanks and amen.

Borgfree

7

My attempt to join Touchstone

by borgfree in

jw
friends

i went to the touchstone site and filled out their registration form.

i thought if they were really open to discussions it might be interesting.

i do not have the registration post but the following is the correspondence that followed after i registered.. email from wrench:.

borgfree

I went to the Touchstone site and filled out their registration form. I thought if they were really open to discussions it might be interesting. I do not have the registration post but the following is the correspondence that followed after I registered.

Email from Wrench:

Hello Roy,

Since none of us at Touchstone know anything about you would you please tell us why you wish to join. Have you read the board agenda announcment and are you in agreement with it?

I notice the name BORGFREE. Since many of our opposers like to refer to us as the BORG, I was wondering if you are a former JW. Are you? If so, are you now in opposition to us? Are you what we would consider to be in an apostate condition? I mean no offense by these questions but it is something we would like to know.

Best regards,
Wrench

My email reply:

I was born into a family of JWs. My father was a "Company Servant" when I was born. I believed The teachings of the Watchtower Society until I was 54 years old. I no longer believe their teachings at all.

The name Borgfree is indeed referring to being free of the "Borg" or Brooklyn Organization. I have read your board rules and do agree to comply with them.

I would be considered an apostate by JWs, however I am a strong believer in my Lord and my God, in fact I am a stronger believer than I ever was as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

You do not offend me by your questions, I am fully aware of the teachings of the WT and do not fully blame the average JW for believing what has been instilled into them.

I have joined several forums and post once in a while when a topic interests me. My reason for attempting to join this forum is the same. I do not wish to be a disruption on your board since it is your forum, I would think however that your members could discuss and debate bible subjects, isn't that what your forum is for?

Whether you wish to accept my membership or not is of course up to you, I will continue to live (God willing) either way. Thank you for your consideration.

Roy A. Lathrop Sr.

Email from Wrench:

Hello Roy,
We will not be able to approve your membership as it is the board policy to not have those that would be considered apostate on our forum. This is nothing personal to you. We feel that are hands are tied in this area due to what is stated at 2 John 9-11. We feel it would be against our understanding of scripture to engage in scriptural debate with one who would fit this description. However, if you can convince me that this does not apply to you then we can consider your application, that is, if you still desire to. If not, then I wish you the best for the future.
Wrench

My email reply:

Well, obviously Wrench, the scripture does not apply to me. I fully accept all of the teachings of the Christ. I would say that you and JWs do not, however. The Christ, Jesus, did not refuse to discuss scripture with anyone.

The Christ did not teach or even elude to many of the teachings of the JWs, such as 1914, great crowd being on earth, treating your father and/or mother with contempt because they do not follow the dictates of some organization.

In fact he had a few things to say about children who do not honor their parents and children who were more concerned with giving to the temple rather than to their parents.

You can judge for yourself who is pushing ahead of the Christ, even putting an organization in the place of the Christ e.g.. "you must come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" The bible clearly says "there is salvation in no one else" referring to Jesus the Christ.

I am very happy to be a born again Christian after 54 years of giving my loyalty to an organization. I have a personal relationship with the Christ.

I do not post a lot, and really couldn't care less if your forum accepts me or not. I registered with the intent of communicating with your members if your members truly had an open mind and were not enslaved by the commands of an organization. I see they are not, and that is your choice. I respect your right to do so.

I wish you well, not in your efforts to prop up an organization, but that you may truly learn the truth. John 14:6

Borgfree - Roy A. Lathrop Sr.

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

Lisa,

I am not sure about the chocolate bars, when I do eat them (rarely) I choose Nestle, I think they are Swiss.

I mostly agree with you. I am not on a white pride kick. I only get upset when some other group chooses to declare their pride and at the same time deny white people the same right.

I did not mean to totally equate migrant workers with slaves, only that business men will use the cheapest and most convenient workers available, in most cases.

You said: "Now, can you say the same thing for the black slaves? I doubt most of the blacks in this country can even identify the country of their ancestors birth!"

No, I can't say the same thing about blacks. I wonder though, how many of them after being in this country for a few years would have chosen to return to Africa and the conditions they left? Also how many of their decendants would choose to go back?

My grandmother (fathers side) was full blooded Cherokee. I would not like to live under the conditions that existed before the European settlers came. Our ancestors have made great sacrifices resulting in great benefits to us, I think we should all honor them for that and leave all of the wrongs in the past.

I wont go into the Dolly Madison cakes etc., I should leave well enough alone.

edited - wrote the wrong name.

Borgfree

18

Tomorrow is D-day

by Danni in

jw
friends

okay people i am going to the jehovah's witnesses congregation to talk with the preist or elders.

i have over a dozen questions to ask them, they are short and to the point.

if anyone want to give any last minute advice i am listening.

borgfree

Gumby,

I wouldn't be too concerned about being unfair to JWs. I think we all have many stories of unfairness practiced by JWs such as three elders against one publisher in a commitee meeting, elders stick together on their story so the poor publisher has "two or more witnesses" against them.

Also, before I left the WT, I had reason to call the service dept. at Brooklyn a few times. As I talked to the "anonymous" bethelite I could hear a regular "beep" I asked someone from bethel, that I knew, about it, and was told that they record every conversation coming in on the telephone. The person on the telephone did not find it necessary to inform me of my being recorded.

I understand that the "beep" is enough to satisify the legality of the recording but still, doesn't it seem a little deceptive? Not everyone knows the law on recording.

Borgfree

26

Former Elders and Friendly Fire

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

i fought many years from inside as an independent spirit trying to change or at least mitigate damage done by the wtbts.

i met ted jaracz, in the early 1970s when he was called into bethel to serve on the gb.

this mans control of the service department and the gb is what i have fought for 3 decades but recently conceded this system is beyond reforming.

borgfree

Jst2laws,

I have read this thread from the time it started and had decided not to post to it as I do not wish to add anymore to the "harsh criticism" of elders or former elders, but, one thing keeps bothering me about your comments:

Quote:

"I learned from those many years not to waste time on systems nor people who are more concern with being RIGHT than understanding the perspective of others. I have left destructive associations that thrive on harsh and judgmental views."

and:

"Having decided to not even read the negative posts or work of the posters I have failed to consider the posiblity you have proposed."

The attitude of "I am so busy, I don't have time for your problem" and in some cases the attitude that is very evident you can almost hear them thinking "Who are you, I am so intelligent and I am an ELDER, who do you think YOU are to question ME"

I do not mean to put you in that catagory but your comments above brought back those memories.

I am happy for every elder who starts waking up and seeing the WT for what it really is, and I am even more happy for the ones who bravely separate themselves from that disgusting organization. I will be happy to aid any, that I know, if the occasion ever arises.

I know several ex-elders and they are wonderful people, I treasure their friendship. I have also met some who give the impression that they think their prestige should be transfered from elder to non-elder and that they should be treated with high honor just as they expected in the organization.

I resent the high-mindedness of some, if that elder is truly a good friend/brother he does not have to demand honor, he will be given it gladly and willingly.

I do not have any respect for an elder who learns the truth and then keeps acting as a "faithful" representative of the WT organization. By staying in that position he is encouraging others to continue in their course. I have family in the WT. Some of the elders go out of their way to "adopt" my family and keep them "strong" in the organization.

Those elders have displayed wrong motives and in at least one case an elder was disfellowshipped. That elder fits the description I stated above, one who demands great honor, he is a self-righteous, self-serving person. He was just recently reappointed as elder. How should I feel about such a person?

I do not know you, so I do not mean to put you in any catagory. I do wish you all the best in your journey.

(My apolegies to any who has posted something while I was preparing this post, that is, if I repeated your thoughts.)

Borgfree

15

1/2002 KM: WT & Awake Sub Campaign

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

"april: the watchtower and awake!

magazines.

where interest is found on return visits, subscriptions may be offered.".

borgfree

SpinDoctor,

Did you really have a hard time typing as you were laughing so hard at the total nonsence you were writing??

26

Proof the WT is God's Org?

by mindfield in

jw
friends

i recall a conversation i once had with my jw uncle about the many doctrinal flip-flops, the blood issue, and how some in the cong.

treated me like @w#$@ even though i was never baptized.. funny, the only thing he could defend himself with was "well, do you know of any other religion that insists on god's name?

" i didn't know of any, so i coudn't really say yes.

borgfree

Me answering for Fredhall

"Meow"

26

Proof the WT is God's Org?

by mindfield in

jw
friends

i recall a conversation i once had with my jw uncle about the many doctrinal flip-flops, the blood issue, and how some in the cong.

treated me like @w#$@ even though i was never baptized.. funny, the only thing he could defend himself with was "well, do you know of any other religion that insists on god's name?

" i didn't know of any, so i coudn't really say yes.

borgfree

Mindfield,

Sure, it is the love they have for one another! stop laughing

BTW Jesus was given the name that is above EVERY name, I don't see the exception there... at least in a real bible.

37

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree in

jw
friends

abaddon,.

i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?

like, yeah.

borgfree

Lisa you said:

Quote: "There does exist plenty of double standards and not just race based, either. I doubt you will ever hear of any famous WASP women, LOL."

I did not know you were limiting it to women who helped build this country.

I do not know all of the background of the early American women but I would think that out of many such as Betsy Ross, Martha Washington, Dolly Madison and others that there must have been a WASP in there someplace.

Also, Quote: "So we should call a spade a spade (no pun intended, LOL) and say YES white men raped, pillaged, murdered,plundered etc etc to build this country. However, if the situation were reversed I'm sure we would be saying the same thing about black men or yellow men or red men."

I am not sure I got your point. I do not think we have to go back in history to see that your statement is true. We only need to examine today in Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, China, and some I am forgetting.

A few years ago we had examples in Japan and their ally's.

Maybe the point that I missed was your comment that power corrupts. If that is the case I agree with you. I even made the comment years before I left the WT that if our elders (Richmond, Indiana)were an example of the Princes who would be ruling us in the "new system" then I did not want to live there.

You said:

Quote: "Now, I'd like to think that we've learned a LOT in 200 years, so much so that we would never tolerate slavery in our midst today."

Maybe not in our midst but still practiced today, Sudan, I think.

I still have trouble with the notion that this country was built on the backs of those slaves in the south. Those were plantations as you said, much like the large corporation agricultural ranches of today. The corporations today use migrant workers to bring in their crops but if migrant workers were not available they would use whatever work force was available, prices might be higher but there are always workers.

I have to believe the same was true back in slave days. Those plantation owners were not fools, if they did not have access to slavery they would have done whatever was necessary to harvest their crops. If I can believe history, those crops were mostly cotton, am I then to believe that our country's future rested on whether or not the slaves brought in the cotton?

I have been involved in business for many years now. I will tell you that successful business men will do what it takes to make the business a success, if one thing does not work they go to the next thing until they solve their problem, slaves or no slaves.

You Said:

Quote "It is an established and well known fact that SOME Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery. What is not nearly as well known, originally this concept was to benefit ALL involved. Those sold were CRIMINALS and were not wanted in their native villagers. Selling criminals into slavery is one thing, kidnapping and separating families is another thing entirely."

I guess I am not sure of the truth here. I have read that Africans raided villages for the purpose of kidnapping people to sell into slavery. If that is true then why do only white American men get demonized when it comes to slavery? And is it ok to sell criminal men into slavery?

Again you said:

Quote:
"Again, this should not be a surprise, just having black skin doesn't mean you were free from sin until the white man corrupted you!"

You coulda fooled me! Judging by the media for the last 30 - 40 years.

Borgfree (mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore class) kidding, just kidding!!