Welcome, you heathen apostate, you religious sinner, you. I commiserate in your happiness away from the Borg!
Posts by Etude
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16Newb
by Vindico inwhad up, been lurking for a while.
i live in new mexico, ive been dfd for about 20 years.
im married 13 years have 3 kids and couldnt be happier.
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697
Why aren't you an Atheist?
by Bloody Hotdogs! inlong time lurker, first time poster.. .
i'm an ms (accounts servant) in a large congregation in canada.
over the last several years i've faught a hard-won battle to rid my mind of all religous and supernatural beleifs.
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Etude
Bloody Hotdogs! My answer to your question is: Because there's an undeniable tendency in humans which is stronger in some more than others for what some people term "religiosity". Other's call it "spirituality", which encompases the feeling that there's more to the universe, including a meaningful and ultimate purpose and a higher intelligence. That is the force that has caused every culture since the dawn of time to have a concept of "god", something that is very difficult to explain in Evolutionary terms. I came late to this discussion, so forgive me is someone has already addressed this topic with my same comments.
Perhaps it's the misguided need that spirituality can create that makes people congregate into religious groups. After believing for decades and then losing all my preconceived notions about God, I have come to respect and appreciate the need some individuals have to be spiritual. I recognize it in myself, although I have reasoned that I don't need the trappings of rite and fanciful imigery to accomplish the same thing.
At the same time, while believing in the material world above all, I realize that Atheism cannot answer all the questions about what is or isn't. That does not force me to make an alternate conclusion. That leaves me in a difficult place, but one I've learned to be comfortable with, a place from where I can sincerely say: "I don't know". The great thing about my "not knowing" is that it continues to push me to ask more and more profound questions rather than sit complacently on the sidelines. I walk a tight rope every day.
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28
Eric Reeder's Memorial?
by NeverKnew ini've seen the insulting obituary and like all of you, i'm blown away.. i've also seen several threads of individuals crying out for an opportunity to meet with others on this board.
maybe it's time to recognize the need for an assembly (if you will) to foster a familial relationship for those on this board!.
what if a memorial were planned, in eric's honor of course, for a weekend next september in north carolina?
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Etude
I don't know what a year from now may bring me. However, I committ myself to attend for the reason that, besides honoring Eric, it would be a powerfully way to show we care more than they do and because we can bring awareness about the situation that prompted them gathering.
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630
SAD news about OOMPA......
by redredrose inour friend, oompa, has passed away.
just recieved the news a couple of hours ago, and have almost no details.
it happened today or yesterday, he took his own life.
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Etude
never a jw , I reserved my comments for a later time after I read your entry (post #37) because I had to first figure out where you were coming from. I didn't want to lash out at you out of my personal pain and regret. I think your question is genuine, given your lack of understanding about how the WTBTS operates. In some ways, your question is painful to many of us that know firsthand how the organization works and manages to alienate people and devastate lives. I'm guessing you've glossed over some of the comments (I'm thinking of mine) regarding their sanctimonious attitudes. We've lived that, many of us who have had family members shun us and who have had every friend in the world (up to then) turn against us and abandon us. You can't seriously think that to be left out in an emotional desert would not affect people, even the strongest of us.
For Eric, it was more than he could handle. Some people are fragile that way. That doesn't take away from the blame the WTBTS has, and yes, every individual within their ranks involved, for taking part in the demise of a person by denying him or her of the human bond that we so desperately need. If you, as I understand it, have children that are JWs and are not in touch with you, imagine your whole world being alienated from you. It's not easy for some to rebuild a new world of friends and loved ones.
To answer your question directly, the WTBTS is responsible because they have instituted a policy that promotes pain and misery, that encourages family members and friends to abandon one another, that goes against Christ's principles to love even the worst amongst us, that uses cruel procedures to decapitate a body of relationships from its constituents; and they do it in order to punish, because that's how they've chosen to interpret the scriptures. It's just not right in so many ways.
What Eric did he did out of desperation. It's not the first time this has happened. The point is that many people don't have the fortitude that you may have. We should protect those that are the weakest amongst us. That's what Jesus would have done. But the WTBTS doesn't see it that way. Doesn't that make them responsible? If his wife left him it wasn't just because she was tired of him. Think about the counsel she received and the advice they gave her. If you have no clue about that, search this web site or just ask someone here for examples on how they operate.
Do I have to go on with every possibility of what Eric faced? Read his posts and maybe you'll learn something. There's no doubt in my mind that the policies of the WTBTS have caused untold pain and suffering, especially in this particular case. I could be more generic and mention the case about Malawi and Mexico, how some people were exposed to rape and death for not accepting a political membership card (Malawi) and others are allowed to bribe officials to get a military service card (Mexico) in order to continue as Witnesses. Yes, the blood on the WTBTS's hands will never coagulate.
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630
SAD news about OOMPA......
by redredrose inour friend, oompa, has passed away.
just recieved the news a couple of hours ago, and have almost no details.
it happened today or yesterday, he took his own life.
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Etude
Like I said before, I didn't really know Oompa personally and I can't even remember if I commented on his posts. Since yesterday when I felt so hurt at the news, I woke up on a sunny and relatively warm day feeling so bummed out.
I thought about Eric's death and started to get angry while thinking about what the trolls here and the witlesses who knew Eric are thinking. Instead of reflecting on the tragic loss of a life, those sanctimonious bastards are probably saying to themselves how he probably committed suicide because he was lost and removed from Jehovah and they're probably contemplating how he won't have a chance to come back to their stupid new order.
I know that at least some of them will think this way because I've been a witness to that. The last expression of the sort I heard about came from my brother-in-law's mouth. In spite of being a witless in good standing, the guy is a zero on the left, willing to let his family go homeless. His insensitivity knows no bounds. That's the sort of thing that cult encourages.
Right now, I try to picture Eric's life with the words in this song...
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114
The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?
by Recovery ini noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.
if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.
this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.
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Etude
Leolaia , as usual you've been very thorough. Your research confirms for me that there was never a simple and single understanding of the topography of the world in ancient times, but particularly those that influenced the Bible writers. That's mainly why I objected to use of "corners" in association with flatness. Your explanation of "four corners" to reflect the cardinal points is much more apropos than my "corners of the room" analogy.
I was reminded of a depiction of the Hindu universe island sitting on 4 elephants, or the references in Job about the "pillars" of the earth (even though a number is not specified) or the Chinese folk religion that specifies four mountains as the pillars of the world or the four pillars that helped Shu the Egyptian god of air hold up the sky, etc. That number pops up all over the place in reference to ancient concepts of the world.
I'm not clear about the Hebrew concept of the world regarding the order of the "world layers". While it would appear that a circular earth surrounded by a circular ocean sat on some foundations (pillars), my reading of the texts that refer to both (the earth and watery deep) do not really indicate which sits atop of which. Here's one depiction where the earth sits on top of the oceans but the pillars are holding it up while embedded in "watery deep". It's different from other depictions where the "island" earth surrounded by the oceans sits atop something else (or not).
While it's very informative and fascinating in themselves, there's no point making sense of what the ancients believed in comparison to each other since their creations are essentially self-contained. However, it's easy to see how one influenced the other or several others.
Even though I find that humanity in those days would have had a problem conceiving how people on the other side of a spherical world might not fall off, and even though it's unlikely that they actually thought of a spherical world (sans the elephants, snakes and turtles, air gods and what-have-you), I can't totally rule out that they didn't have some concept of the curvature of the earth, although a very incomplete one.
Since ideas in science don't just spring up out of nowhere, it's possible that by the time the Greeks (3rd Century B.C.) hit on the spherical nature of Earth, some other prior cultures had the foundations for it. One clue is the compensations the Hindus made for the latitudes while using sun dials. That's a very important clue and indicator of curvature in the landscape. There's evidence that the Greeks (at or before the Hellenistic period) "borrowed" from the Hindus, which eventually led them to the "two-sphere" cosmic model.
Even though we strayed off topic, I believe that this conversation should establish sufficiently for Recovery that there are inconsistencies in the Bible and that what they believed is a far cry from what we know in the present, as the WTBTS would have people believe. My particular attitude is that if we can question, doubt, debate and discuss issues like this, it means we not only have the freedom to do so, but we have the right to dissent and not be forced to make conclusions where none are forthcoming. That's the real distinction of truth.
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630
SAD news about OOMPA......
by redredrose inour friend, oompa, has passed away.
just recieved the news a couple of hours ago, and have almost no details.
it happened today or yesterday, he took his own life.
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Etude
Damn it! I hate to hear that. I hate it that such things happen. I'm feel a pain in my chest and I didn't really know Oompa, not much. I looked up his moniquer and now I remember him. I saw his Facebook page. He leaves a lot of memories behind. I'm conflicted. I feel we are ultimately responsible for own lives, but that doesn't mean other's didn't have a hand in it. I DO blame the WTBTS for the cruelty and torture they impose on people. I'm so sad that they broke him. I'm glad those m*therf*ckers don't have control of me anymore. Yes, they have blood on their hands, those pityless bastards.
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114
The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?
by Recovery ini noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.
if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.
this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.
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Etude
King Solomon "etude, remember that the Bible was written over centuries by many authors", that thought never escaped my mind. This is why I singled out the idea that if some will redact for reasons of revisionism in an effort to conform with a particular view (which is an important reason why the gospels contradict each other and omit events from each other), it's possible to assume the opposite. That is, not that they added words ("circle" for example) to conform to a view, but that they omitted words (or a genealogical entries) in order to support an opposing view. I guess we have to look at individual examples. The one we're discussing, whether and if it's a circular earth on a circular ocean or a spherical earth must exclude the mention of "corners" as a support for assuming that the ancients believed the world was flat and having corners.
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38
Schizophrenia
by frankiespeakin inwhile doing some personal research on the subject i came across this.
basically in the jungian world it is discribed as an overpowering of ego by the unconsciousness.
"if the human race survives, future men will, i suspect, look back on our enlightened epoch as a veritable age of darkness... they will see that what was considered 'schizophrenic' was one of the forms in which, often through quite ordinary people, the light began to break into our all-too-closed minds.".
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Etude
I had a friend (roommate and ex-bethelite) who developed schizophrenia, which manifested itself after two suicide attempts. Ever since, I've been interested in the disease and try to learn about it as often as possible. I saw how the drugs disconnected my friend from some of his faculties (not being able to form coherent thoughts) and I saw the ineffective treatment professional therapy was providing him.
I'm convinced that there are multiple causes for it. And if genetics are involved, it may only mean that it may provide a propensity for its onset and not be a direct cause. Studies done with identical twins where one has it and not the other demonstrate that genetic inheritance is not always the culprit. Some researchers have suggested Epigenetics as a possible carrier for molecules that affect one person and not another with identical genes.
There are mild and extreme forms of it. My friend was seeing "monsters" on the wall and was hearing voices. Dr. Vilayanur S. Ramachandran, a behavioral neurologist that made several important discoveries while at U.C. San Diego, has demonstrated that an imbalance of chemistry, either too much or too little of one chemical that inhibits the activity of a part of the brain or makes it get out-of-had with activity, can send our thoughts into extreme states (thinking one is Jesus and can walk on water, that one understands everything in the universe, etc). Some of his patients experience this pathology after and because they suffer from seizures, other's because of damage due to an accident.
Frankly, I'm reluctant to make a distinction between biological or neurological or chemical causes. In the end, everything that happens inside the brain is due to transmissions of chemicals triggered reciprocally by and for electrical impulses (some chemicals trigger electrical impulses and some electrical impulses trigger the production of other chemicals). That they fail to work, may be due to genetic errors, to accidents or just an innate bad structure in the brain from physical forces or environmental triggers that prevent the normal from happening. Turrets is an interesting disease that shows the lack of control of specific parts of the brain while the sufferer still remains "functional" in most other respects. In a sense, that pathology is very similar in function to schizophrenia but with much less severe consequences.
It really pains me to see people who suffer with ailments like schizophrenia or Dementia (which slowly eats away your brain and robs your personality). I consider them by far the cruelest of diseases.
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114
The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?
by Recovery ini noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.
if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.
this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.
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Etude
Leolaia, I truly respect your opinions and your craftiness for supporting what you say with research. However (oh no!), the reason I mentioned how a circle would not be associated (within this discussion) with a flat surface is because of Finkelstein's reference regarding Daniel 4:10-11 (his post 1143), which prompted King Solomon to inform me that "And neither circles or spheres have corners (much less 4 corners)." You make a fine point by mentioning the "circle of the earth" as in Isaiah 40:22 to suggest a circular land mass on a flat surface. But Job 26:10 and Proverbs 8:27 refer to the circle over the "watery deep" or on the "surface of the waters". So, while that would agree with your presentation that a circular Earth was bounded by a circular ocean, it contradicts the references to corners of the earth (as many ancients believed, especially the Bible writers). So, I'm thinking that (at least some) believed that the Earth might have been flat and circular sitting on a square ocean, or that the Earth was circular sitting on a circular ocean, thereby not having any corners, or that the Earth was spherical and that the "corners" reference was to what they were used to, as when you look for something in all corners of a room (yes, a metaphor but a very logical one that would apply to a lot of people, except Eskimos and Indians living in Tepees). At some point, we would have to assume that they believed the ocean surrounding the circle-Earth was square and not a circle in order to support the "corners" theory (if they believed that the term came from a square flat earth). I don't know. I think that a lot of that is subject to speculation and is all inconclusive. I merely suggest one possibility.
I sometimes wonder how much some ancients actually believed about their own bullshit, especially the priests who had plenty of opportunity to see where their own predictions and beliefs failed. I tend to think that religion in those days was a tool for the educated to keep the uneducated in place. Even in relatively recent times, royalty in the 17th and 18th century probably didn't really think that their rule was divinely ordained. It's just something they perpetuated in order to keep the little people in awe of them. The more elaborate they made their universes the more I tend to think they were being artistic and poetic rather than literal and truthful.
I agree with all the other stuff about Martin Luther, the non-freezing of the mammoths, errors in the Bible, the bull about the mark of the beast (666), the bull about organs of cognition and that Exodus ever happened. But by now, we're way off topic.
