Posts by slimboyfat

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

The original post discusses the idea that future scientific discoveries about the origin of life may eliminate the need for God and leave theists with difficult questions to answer. I am pointing out that this approach to understanding reality rests upon various assumptions that are difficult the establish. Such as the assumption that scientific discoveries can tell us anything about the nature or existence of God. Also the assumption that human rationality is the measure of what is real and exists in the world.

These are hardly novel or particularly "postmodern" ideas in the philosophy of religion. They are common objections to a purely materialist conception of reality. That you apparently give them no consideration is not, as you seem to imagine, proof that I am talking postmodern rubbish. If you have not considered these sorts of arguments it does speak well of the robustness of your own position that you trumpet with such confidence.

Instead of trying to invent ways to embarrass creationists intellectually you could better spend time tidying your own intellectual back yard.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

In apophatic terms it could be said of God that he is both not alive and not not-alive.

Materialists see it as a cop out if theists say that God cannot be defined in terms of being alive or existent. But in a sense this could be said to be the very point of God, that he not be defined in human terms. Finite creatures are bound by descriptions. If God is in some sense infinite then he can be said cross boundaries of time, space and existence/non-existence.

It may be objected that this does not make sense in our mind. But is it a reasonable expectation that the nature of God should make sense to human thought? Because humans are endowed with remarkable thinking ability compared with animals, we may tend to imagine that our ability to understand the world and its nature is therefore unlimited. But it is obviously also possible that, while our ability to think is very good, it is nevertheless incapable of comprehending certain aspects of reality, including the nature of God.

Humanist materialists elevate human rationality to a kind of God. When presented with the situation that the human mind cannot comprehend how God could be said to be outside human categories, they conclude that therefore God cannot "exist". As if the ability of the human mind is itself the measure of what can and cannot "exist" in reality. Materialists are free to make this assumption if they wish. But it is also fair to point out that it is simply an assumption, and also that it involves making incredibly high claims for the human mind. If the ability of the human mind to make sense of certain phenomena is the measure of whether the thing exists in reality, then this is making the human mind into God, determining what exists and does not exist.

So there is a sense in which atheistiic materialism does not so much eliminate God but rather puts the human mind in the place of God.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

slimboyfat

I expressed my total contempt for SBF's bullshit attempt to destroy the conversation before it began. I am very interested in opposing views on this topic. That is why I started it. I find Vidqun's previous post to be very honest and interesting. Basically he, like many other theists are hoping it will never happen.

My post was an attempt to further the conversation by pointing out that the idea that scientific discoveries can settle questions about the nature or existence of God is itself questionable, at the very least.

You claim you are interested in hearing opposing views, but it seems to be along very narrow lines: creationists or theists with predictable responses that you feel you can easily dispatch are welcome.

However opposing views that question your approach at a more fundamental level don't appear to be entertained at all, to put it mildly. But why call an opposing view "trolling" just because you disagree with it?

53

The Real Reason why the WT predicted Armageddon in 1975

by OrphanCrow in

i am of the opinion that the wt doctrine is influenced more by external factors that it is by internal ones.

one of the doctrines that has puzzled me for some time is the armageddon prediction of 1975. why would the wts make this prediction?

what was their real purpose?.

slimboyfat

Actually the growth was better from 1945 to 1955 than 1965 to 1975. I haven't checked this again right now but I remember from comparing it a few years ago.

But yes it's true to say 1975 appears to have been a net gain for JW numbers because growth was slowing down considerably in the 1960s before the prediction was made.

36

This week's WT study article "Keep on the Watch" - the latest dumb article from the Gang That Couldn't Think Straight

by sir82 in

ok so this week's wt study article is entitled "why must we keep on the watch?"..

it is filled with statements on the importance of "being watchful" for the beginning of the "great tribulation".

paragraph 2: “keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.”after that, jesus admonished them repeatedly: “keep on the watch.”.

slimboyfat

Reminds me of the genius WT a few years ago that explained how a "short period of time" is really "an extended period of time".

36

This week's WT study article "Keep on the Watch" - the latest dumb article from the Gang That Couldn't Think Straight

by sir82 in

ok so this week's wt study article is entitled "why must we keep on the watch?"..

it is filled with statements on the importance of "being watchful" for the beginning of the "great tribulation".

paragraph 2: “keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.”after that, jesus admonished them repeatedly: “keep on the watch.”.

slimboyfat

Yeah I had a local JW explain this to me.

She said, "this week's WT study shows the end is really near".

I said, "oh, how does it show that?"

She said, "it makes the point that Armageddon will come when no one expects it, so it must be really near now."

Doh!

6

Genesis 6 verse 3 - "man's days will be one hundred and twenty", so explain this.............

by cantleave in

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/worlds-oldest-person-man-mbah-gotho-indonesia-145-years-old-a7213191.html.

slimboyfat

I think an alternative interpretation of the verse offered in the WT was that God gave humans 120 years to repent before he brought the flood

Why did god step down the age of people from almost 1000 to 120 then to 70 or 80.

It used to be a major feature of JW teaching that humanity has progressively degenerated since the fall: in terms of longevity, strength, intelligence, morals.

The old WT literature against evolution relied heavily on the argument that evolution is about the improvement of mankind, and humans are clearly degenerating over the centuries, therefore evolution can't be true. Thus in one fell swoop they managed to misunderstand evolution, the Bible and history.

53

The Real Reason why the WT predicted Armageddon in 1975

by OrphanCrow in

i am of the opinion that the wt doctrine is influenced more by external factors that it is by internal ones.

one of the doctrines that has puzzled me for some time is the armageddon prediction of 1975. why would the wts make this prediction?

what was their real purpose?.

slimboyfat

Is it right, that the tax involved was property tax in the state of New York? It's not the same as JWs losing tax exemption in general. Any idea about the amount of money involved? If they paid the tax from 1971 to 1974 is there public record?

Yes I read the part of the article that says preaching was key to their argument for being considered a religious community. What is absent however is any evidence that 1975 was promoted with the aim of proving that they are a proselytising community when they were already regarded as such. Instead what we have is a lot of evidence that JWs were pointing to 1975 for decades (at least since the 1940s) and that Fred Franz heavily promoted the idea and was idelogically committed to it.

As dozy says, many recent developments were clearly financially motivated, such as dropping charges for the literature. The evidence for the financial and legal motives behind that change is clear.

53

The Real Reason why the WT predicted Armageddon in 1975

by OrphanCrow in

i am of the opinion that the wt doctrine is influenced more by external factors that it is by internal ones.

one of the doctrines that has puzzled me for some time is the armageddon prediction of 1975. why would the wts make this prediction?

what was their real purpose?.

slimboyfat

The fact WT lost tax exemption on their New York properties between 1971 and 1974 is an interesting fact in itself I have not seen mentioned elsewhere. Thanks for posting it. I wonder why it's not been commented upon.

But linking it with the 1975 prediction seems unwarranted, unless there's some evidence.

18

Undeserved kindness

by life is to short in

just a side note that i found interesting and sort of upsetting, the wt that the jw's will study on sunday the 18th of september has the words undeserved kindness mentioned 50 in just 19 paragraphs.

really they need to beat it into their people that they are very worthless and do no deserve anything from god?

so much so that they use the words over and over, don't they.. lits .

slimboyfat

The word "grace" tends to emphasize God's mercy, whereas the term "underserved kindness" emphasises that humans are not worthy.

When you gain broader perspective it becomes apparent that JWs are not a very God oriented religion.