Posts by artful

15

Man 0 - Jehovah 1

by PopeOfEruke in

what really started cheesing me off with the wt and awake magazines while i was still an active jw was the constant propaganda based on man versus jehovah.

it was as if there was a great tug-of-war being propogated between man and god by the wt society.

everything that man made was constantly criticised and belittled, while whatever jehovah made was so great!

Well said Pope!
This is a very interesting point. I think the mental tug-of-war you mention is really between the WTS and man! They seek to discredit the efforts of man as feeble and not worth putting our trust in. It seems they fear that to acknowledge the connection that "whatever MAN builds is a CREDIT to God" might lead some to "worship" men! Instead they want their followers to rely on Jehovah (read WTS) for their worship, and come to Jehovah (read WTS) for his (their) superior wisdom. This of course amounts to worship of men anyway because as we know their can be no worship of Jehovah without the FDS to guide us! LOL

Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Friday: I do appreciate the time you spent in explaining your point of view. I also comprehend the argument you present. The reasons that I don't think it very strong are as follows:
1. Not having the mark of the beast doesn't necessarily equate to being rulers with Christ. During the outpouring of God's wrath on those who have the mark of the beast (Rev 14:11, Rev 16:2) by your own WTS theology, the Great Crowd on Earth during this outpouring would certainly not have the mark of the beast, yet they would also certainly not be rulers with Christ.

2. Having the name of Jesus and God on your forehead does not make one a ruler with Christ. By WTS definition (Revelation book pg. 200) these ones are considered "Jehovah's witnesses, his slaves", a name certainly shared by the Great Crowd of non-rulers - who if they don't have the mark of the beast would assumedly have the mark of Jehovah to identify them as "Jehovah's Witnesses" thereby avoiding God's wrath. WTS uses the analogy of JWs being a "marked" people continually.

Therefore, the fact that the 144K are described as having the name of Jesus and God written on their foreheads, and Christ's co-rulers are said not have the name of the beast on their forehead still doesn't make them the same people.

Cheers
Artful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph: Thanks for your comments. I do understand that these two expressions are interchangeable. Since Matthew was writing to a primarily Jewish audience he would have used the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" out of respect for the Jews who did not write out the word God. Considering this, it would be incorrect to draw the conclusion that the OT faithful have a heavenly destination from these two scriptures alone. However, when considered in combination with Hebrews which refers to a heavenly city prepared for them, it would seem to make sense that the OT men could have a heavenly hope.

Having said that, my argument of the OT faithful having a heavenly hope does assume that you actually believe in a heavenly resurrection, which I can see by your comments you do not. I would like to address the two scriptures you cite to support your belief:

You mention that the only one qualified to go to heaven was Jesus as he was from there and since we are human (born of flesh) we do not qualify. I would agree with this reasoning. However, reading the entire chapter of John 3 in context, wasn't the whole purpose of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus to demonstrate that (as you say) no one born of flesh (man) can enter the Kingdom of God, so therefore we must be born again of Spirit to do so...

John 3: 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Applying this same line of reasoning that flesh (man) cannot enter the Kingdom but that which is born of spirit can; the scripture at 1 Timothy could simply be taken to mean that no man (flesh) could approach God.

I would be genuinely interested to hear your explanation of how the scriptures that refer to heavenly rewards and existence are to be understood. Including the 144K scripture in Revelation where the location seems so clearly to be heaven. Also, both Jesus and Paul many times contrast the superiority of heavenly citizenship with earthly. See:

Matt 6:19,20 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 6:23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Cheers
Artful

16

144,000 and Rulership

by artful in

while investigating the wts concept of "two classes of christians" - the first being a heavenly ruling class made up of the 144,000, and the second an earthly subject class - i decided to investigate the basic wts premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "rulers with christ".

those who would rule with christ - the "first resurrection".

although it could be theorized that if paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with christ.

artful

Craig and jgnat: thank you for your kind words.

Lefty/Yardif (or whoever your are): I'm afraid if that is all you have to PROVE the connection....I'm less than convinced. Thanks for trying though...woof, woof, LOL!
Cheers
Artful

9

THE WEALTHY MAN'S HUNGER

by Utopian_Raindrops in

we have nothing to eat.

then eat.

"try some of the kugel," his wife said as she pushed the plate back to him.

artful

Thanks for sharing this story Utopian!

Very fitting for this time of year.
Cheers
Artful

27

Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT

by eyeslice in

i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.

the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.

9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.

artful

eyeslice: I think in the specific case you cite the answer seems self-revealing. The NWT has obviously inserted Jehovah (by their own admission - see footnote in NWT Reference Bible) and clouded the issue. When a proper translation is presented (NIV) it seems plain that throughout the entire scripture, the "Lord" that Paul is referring to leads us to Jesus who is to be "Lord of both the dead and the living".

As to trying to determine in other scriptures who is being referred to (God or Jesus), I think each scripture would have to be analyzed individually and/or in combination with supporting scriptures.

Cheers
Artful

17

Are JWs loosing it?

by eyeslice in

personally, i am more of a lurker than a poster, which i guess is because i am still very much on the fringes of the organization.

although many here have become bitter due to their experiences in the truth, i am sure that many of us look back on some really great times we had.

there was a time when there was a great feeling of optimism, new families (not just the odd individual here and there) were studying and coming along.

artful

Great Post IslandWoman:

your comment about FF being able to "able to spin us around so well we hardly knew we were spinning and it felt so good!" really hit the nail on the head!

Whyhideit: Thank you for a very touching, heartwarming post

I remember myself and the 3 pioneer bros that lived with me being so enthusiastic about the "1914 generation" and its imminent end. We used to have such zeal in preaching this "urgent" message, truly believing that we were demonstrating "love" for those in our territory. Now, as with myself, all but one of these bros is no longer attending JW meetings any more!

Looking back, to me this was a time of great friendships, but also a time of great deceits!

Cheers
Artful

19

COMMENTS YOU WON'T HEAR AT THE 12-22-02 WT STUDY

by blondie in

comments you will not hear at the 12-22-02 wt study.

november 1, 2002 watchtower page 14. christians neutrals in the last days .

john 17:16: "they are no part of the world, just as i am no part of the world.".

artful

Thanks for another great post Blondie!

It's nice to study the "Director's Cut" Watchtower at home like this while my wife is listening to the "Made-for-TV" version at the the KH today. This kind of research has certainally promoted some eye-opening conversations with her this year!

Cheers
Artful

7

When did the resurrection of the 144k begin?

by Bona Dea in

.

when do the jws teach that the resurrection of the 144,000 began?

just curious.... thanks in advance for any help

artful

Bona Dea:

NeonMadman wrote in another post, regarding the WTS 1918 date:
"Now, I'm sure you're wondering, why 1918? WTS says because it took 3 1/2 years for Solomon to build the temple, and the spring of 1918 is 3 1/2 years after the fall of 1914, when the "Gentile Times" ended. If you understand why those two time periods should be of the same length, you're one up on me. "

Hope this helps...bizarre!
Cheers
Artful

here is the address for the other post:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42729&site=3

10

Merry Christmas To Everyone!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

this is the first year i have ever told anyone merry christmas, so i just want to say..... merry christmas!.

what is christmas really about?.

i'll let the bible answer that (by the way, everyone can download 19+ bible translations absolutely free at http://www.e-sword.net):.

artful

Merry Christmas to you too UD!

Thanks for this list of reasons to celebrate the birth of Christ! Although some may take issue that the exact date of this event did not occur on or even close to Dec 25th, I think that the reasons for the celebration or Christ's birth are the most important.

Since this also happens to be the first time that I will celebrate a (very quiet) family Christmas with my (JW) wife and young daughter, this Christmas is an event that I am very much looking forward to!

Cheers
Artful