144,000 and Rulership

by artful 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • artful
    artful

    While investigating the WTS concept of "two classes of Christians" - the first being a Heavenly Ruling Class made up of the 144,000, and the second an Earthly Subject Class - I decided to investigate the basic WTS premise that all of the 144,000 are to be "Rulers with Christ". Although I'm sure something similar has been posted before, I thought I would share some of the information I found and would very much appreciate any comments on the strengths and weaknesses in my argumentation.

    I apologize for the length of this posting but in order to provide proof, I have included the scriptures in full as they pertain to each topic, with my comments below.
    Cheers
    Artful
    ___________
    144,000
    Revelation 7:4
    Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

    Revelation 14:1
    1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

    COMMENT: These are the only two references in the Bible to the 144,000. In neither instance are they referred to as "ruling with Christ". In fact, there is no mention of the 144,000 acting in any special judging or ruling capacity in the Kingdom of God. The connection of the 144,000 and ruling seems to be taken from the the mention of the 144,000 as "firstfruits", and the assertion that those taking part in the "first resurrection" (Rev 20 - see below) are the same as those referred to as "firstfruits". The question then is do any scriptures make this connection (see "other references to firstfruits" below)?

    ___________
    Those who would rule with Christ - the "first resurrection"
    Revelation 20:1-6
    4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority* to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    *To whom did Jesus grant the authority to judge
    Matthew 19:28
    28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Luke 22:29-30
    29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    COMMENT: Jesus said that he would grant authority for his twelve disciples to sit on twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel (or spiritual Israel of God) are referred to in Revelation 7:4 collectively as the 144,000. It then follows that those whom Jesus granted authority would be judging the 144,000, they are not referred to as being the 144,000.

    ___________
    Others who would rule/judge
    1Corinthians 6:1-3
    1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

    COMMENT: Paul seems to indicate that there would be others besides the 12 disciples of Christ who would be judging.

    ___________
    Other scriptural references to "firstfruits"
    Romans 11:16
    If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    COMMENT: Paul indicates that Christ - being the holy firstfruit - has made his entire congregation holy also.

    1 Corinthians 15:20
    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    James 1:18
    He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

    COMMENT: No connection is made linking those refered to as "firstfruits" with those who are judging or ruling with Christ as part of the "first resurrection". Although it could be theorized that if Paul said that the "saints" or "holy ones" are to judge the world, and these are part of the "firstfruits" then the some of the 144,000 may be ruling with Christ. The "firstfruits" or 144,000 could then represent the entire Christian congregation or "spritual Israel of God" which is to be ruled over by those whom Jesus grants the "authority to judge".

    ___________
    References to a "first resurrection" - those who would rule with Christ
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    COMMENT: Those dead in Christ rise first - seemingly corresponding to the "first resurrection". Even if this were so it could logically still refer only to those who had "been given authority to judge" by Jesus and not the entire "spiritual Israel" of God or 144,000.

    Luke 20:35-36
    35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    COMMENT: Jesus indicates that those who are worthy of a resurrection of life no longer die (though these are not all necessarily part of the first resurrection). NOTE: As these ones are "like the angels" this also seems to refute the theory that after the "Great Tribulation" the resurrection would take place in an earthly realm.

    ___________
    What about the "better resurrection"
    Hebrews 11:35
    35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

    COMMENT: This scripture has been used by some to give support to the idea of a better resurrection (heavenly vs earthly), trying to connect this with those partaking in the first resurrection. However, this scripture (see Insight on Scriptures 1 page 785) clearly states that the better resurrection is so because those experiencing it would not die again as those who were resurrected before Jesus time did. Not because there were going to be two classes of resurrection in God's Kingdom.

    COMMENT: In all of these scriptures, although there are those whom Jesus grants "authority to judge" or rule with him, there appears to be no evidence that these are literally represented by the 144,000.

    ADDITIONAL SIDEPOINT: In all of these scriptures, although there is a reference to two resurrections in Revelation 20, there is no reference to different destinations for these resurrections (earthly vs. heavenly). They all reference a heavenly resurrection.

  • Bona Dea
    Bona Dea

    Great post!!

    Quick question: When do the JWs teach that the resurrection of the 144,000 began???

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    That was some artful research!

    When I first read this, I was sure that there was some clear Scriptural connection that showed the 144K as rulers. Well, guess what? Yet another convoluted WTS interpretation down the drain.

    artful, thanks for drawing my attention to this.

    Craig

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    A person looking for a fault is not looking for the truth, and so will not find the truth.

    .

  • artful
    artful

    Thanks for your replies Craig and Bona Dea!

    This research originated with a conversation my brother and I had regarding the two classes of Christian from Rev 7 - he is a loyal follower of the JW theology. We both agreed that Rev 7 does seem to refer to two groups (144K and Great Crowd) so I thought it would be worthwhile to determine what the scriptures have to say about each group. I started this with the assumption (as you mentioned Craig) that I would find supporting scriptures outlining a clear connection between rulership and the 144K. What I did find is that there does not seem to be any such connection.

    As to my motives, Yardif, I would suggest to you that one who does not clear away scripturally unsupported teachings can never hope to see the truth!....besides Yardif, isn't your technique of attacking the messenger and ignoring the message a little too obvious to be effective on this board?

    Cheers
    Artful

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Yadirf:

    "It is a pleasure to stand upon the shore, and to see ships tost upon the sea: a pleasure to stand in the window of a castle, and to see a battle and the adventures thereof below: but no pleasure is comparable to standing upon the vantage ground of truth . . . and to see the errors, and wanderings, and mists, and tempests, in the vale below."
    Francis Bacon

  • TR
    TR

    Ya-Drone said;

    A person looking for a fault is not looking for the truth, and so will not find the truth.

    That's why many 'hovahs and 'hovah wannabees like yourself can't seem to see that the WTS is full of crap. They can't conceive of the idea that the bible or the WTS might be wrong.

    TR- anti-drone class

  • Lefty
    Lefty

    Fartful says:

    besides Yardif, isn't your technique of attacking the messenger and ignoring the message a little too obvious to be effective on this board?

    Instead of trying to be insulting, if you'll look back through my many posts you'll see that I've addressed "the message" PLENTY of times, while others (take Yeru as an example, and only just recently) have ignored MY challenges/messages. That there gives me one good reason for not addressing YOUR so-called "message"; in other words, you're not one to be truthful. The number two reason that I won't go to the trouble to address YOUR so-called "message" is because the bias in your initial words in this thread was far from being undetectable. As biased as you are, there is absolutely no way possible for you to see anything but what you want to see, so I won't waste my time with you.

    Yadirf

    .

  • Lefty
    Lefty

    Fartful,

    Okay, I admit it, I feel sorry for you. So, I'll try.

    You said:

    there is no mention of the 144,000 acting in any special judging or ruling capacity in the Kingdom of God.

    The clues that solve your delemma of not being able to see that the 144,000 are to rule as kings alongside Christ during the thousand years is actually right there in the scriptures that you've quoted, namely:

    Revelation 14:1
    1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

    ___________
    Those who would rule with Christ - the "first resurrection"
    Revelation 20:1-6
    4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority* to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    Note that the 144,000, mentioned in the 14th chapter, rather than having the name/mark of the beast upon their foreheads have Jesus' and his father's name there instead. In other words, under compulsion (see 13:15-16), they came out victorious in resisting the name/mark of the beast from being placed upon their foreheads. Those with the mark are the ones who gave in and accepted it. The mark is much like a brand in that it identifies the person's owner. Thus, those who accepted the mark have become slaves to their owner, the wild beast. On the other hand, under the same test as all others, the 144,000 prove that their owners are Jehovah God and Jesus Christ ... because those are the names upon thier foreheads.

    Now, read the parts that I've highlighted in both scriptures in the quote up above. If you can't make the connection I won't only feel sorry for you, I'll pity you as well. Yes, it's the 144,000 that is referred to there in 20:4 ... as can be seen by association along with having an understanding of what names on foreheads express.

    Now, by your reply, prove to me that I've not given what is holy to a dog.--Matthew 7:6.

    .

    Edited by - Lefty on 23 December 2002 0:27:29

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Artful, I just want to say I appreciate your approach to bible study. Your research is well-reasoned and thorough. Great job! Too bad Yardif did not mean it when he/she said he/she would ignore you.

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