Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

artful

The WTS doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in God's Kingdom has never really sat right with me. I did some scriptural research on it and thought I would share it . Any comments would be appreciated.
Cheers
Artful
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Heaven and the faithful men and women of the Old Testament
Matthew 8
11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 13
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Luke 16
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[1] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
COMMENT - In all three instances Jesus refers to the faithful men of old as being in heaven.
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Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
COMMENT - Paul clearly indicates that these men/women of old were "strangers and exiles on the earth" (NWT) searching for a better heavenly country.
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Matthew 17
1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
COMMENT - during the preview of his transfigured glory Jesus is seen conversing with Moses and Elijah in heaven.
Utopian_Raindrops

artful,
I have to say your most likely,very extreemly, RIGHT!
This is something that had bothered me before also. I used to wonder how such a faithful men as John The Baptist....Abraham....Elijah.....etc. could not qualify for heavenly rule.
Also, the jews were 1st in line for this privelege.Jesus came for the jews. So it would make sense that faithful men of old would qualify.
One of the arguements that it is was good for men to become Kings in heaven was that they would be from all times and all cultures. Why would some time periods and some cultures be so very misrepresented!
I have to run out and take my son to speach or I'd write more........but, I very much enjoyed your post!! Thank-you.....
You made me feel better about something I always believed in my heart.
Agape,
Utopian_Raindrops
Edited by - Utopian_Raindrops on 18 December 2002 13:14:39
artful

Thanks for your reply Utopian_Raindrops.
It's nice to be able to re-examine the scriptures without WTS dogma hanging over me. I found that at first, I did this to tackle some of the major JW doctrines that I had issue with, but as time goes on I have found it interesting to re-examine just about everything I had been previously taught. It is surprising how many teachings (major and minor) are just not scriptural!
Cheers
Artful
Room 215

Whatever one thinks of JW dogma overall, there's no doubt those of us who still consider the Bible to be authoritative in such matters must still come to terms with what Jesus himself said of John the Baptist (``No one born of woman is greater; yet even a lesser one in the Kingdom of Heavens is greater than he") or what Peter said of David and other pre-Christian worshipers at Pentecost in Acts. 2.
artful

Room 215:
Thanks for your comments! These two scriptures in no way contridict my claims. Consider it this way:
1. Jesus statement that "no one born of woman...." could easily be interpreted as the superiority of heavenly citizenship over earthly. No man was greater than John "on earth" but even "a lesser one" in the Kingdom of Heavens (born of Spirit) would be greater than John was on earth. Jesus here was using John (when he was alive on earth) to demonstrating the superiority of heavenly citizenship with that of earthly, he wasn't saying that John was never going to be part of a heavenly group.
2. Peter wrote that David "did not ascend to heaven" to demonstrate that when David wrote about not being "abandoned to the grave" he was not speaking of himself but of Jesus. The fact that David had at that time not ascended to heaven did not preclude his ever ascending to heaven. My contention is not that the faithful men of old had already ascended to heaven before Jesus death (as Jesus was the first to ascend to heaven) but rather that according to the scriptures they could and would do so at some time.
Artful
JosephMalik

Artful,
All you have shown is that the expression "kingdom of heaven" is the same as the expression "kingdom of God." These are Hebrew and Greek ways for expressing this coming kingdom. Such prophetic parables do not locate man in some far away place. In fact no one will go to heaven as this "kingdom of God" will be right here on earth and our Lord will return as promised in human form to administer it. The only person that qualified to go to such a place was our Lord since He was from there and His seed qualified. Our seed does not as it is fully human. To demonstrate Paul and our Lord both taught.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Watchtower doctrine that only 144,000 will go to heaven is a lie. This symbolic representation for the disciples of Christ that will preside over the world of mankind as Priests in this kingdom will all take place here on earth where our Lord will also be when He comes or arrives.
Joseph
onacruse

In fact no one will go to heaven as this "kingdom of God" will be right here on earth and our Lord will return as promised in human form to administer it.

Acts 1:11, 1 Thess 4:16 and Rev 21:1-4 are somewhat easier for me to visualize if the kingdom is earthly. Haven't thought it all the way through, but it does seem like the Scriptures could be consistently taken to mean this.
I'm very interested to see more comment.
Craig
Room 215

Then there's Psalm 46:15: ``In place of your fathers, they shall be your sons, whom you make Princes in all the earth."
The WTBTS applies this to Jesus and applies it as a reference to his earthly Jewish forebears... seems to make sense, no?
artful

Joseph: Thanks for your comments. I do understand that these two expressions are interchangeable. Since Matthew was writing to a primarily Jewish audience he would have used the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" out of respect for the Jews who did not write out the word God. Considering this, it would be incorrect to draw the conclusion that the OT faithful have a heavenly destination from these two scriptures alone. However, when considered in combination with Hebrews which refers to a heavenly city prepared for them, it would seem to make sense that the OT men could have a heavenly hope.
Having said that, my argument of the OT faithful having a heavenly hope does assume that you actually believe in a heavenly resurrection, which I can see by your comments you do not. I would like to address the two scriptures you cite to support your belief:
You mention that the only one qualified to go to heaven was Jesus as he was from there and since we are human (born of flesh) we do not qualify. I would agree with this reasoning. However, reading the entire chapter of John 3 in context, wasn't the whole purpose of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus to demonstrate that (as you say) no one born of flesh (man) can enter the Kingdom of God, so therefore we must be born again of Spirit to do so...
John 3: 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Applying this same line of reasoning that flesh (man) cannot enter the Kingdom but that which is born of spirit can; the scripture at 1 Timothy could simply be taken to mean that no man (flesh) could approach God.
I would be genuinely interested to hear your explanation of how the scriptures that refer to heavenly rewards and existence are to be understood. Including the 144K scripture in Revelation where the location seems so clearly to be heaven. Also, both Jesus and Paul many times contrast the superiority of heavenly citizenship with earthly. See:
Matt 6:19,20 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 6:23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Cheers
Artful
JosephMalik

However, when considered in combination with Hebrews which refers to a heavenly city prepared for them, it would seem to make sense that the OT men could have a heavenly hope.
Artful,
On the contrary. Since by your own admission the term Heavenly was an alternate expression for God, then a heavenly city to the Hebrews would be an alternate way of saying a Godly city prepared for them. A change from the ungodly city they knew in their day ruled by the Romans.
Artful said: You mention that the only one qualified to go to heaven was Jesus as he was from there and since we are human (born of flesh) we do not qualify. I would agree with this reasoning. However, reading the entire chapter of John 3 in context, wasn't the whole purpose of Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus to demonstrate that (as you say) no one born of flesh (man) can enter the Kingdom of God, so therefore we must be born again of Spirit to do so...
John 3: 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Where does being born again or being born of the Spirit indicate that we become non-human creatures at some time in the future? Nicodemus was expected to be born again as were all followers of our Lord while still here on earth as a human before they died. He would have to give up the Law and its requirements and embrace a new Faith radically different in Christ as if he were a completely different person (in Spirit) or born again. Look at Paul. He was born again and lived a life far removed from what he was prior to such conversion. Being born again should never be interpreted in a way that alters our very nature from human to something else. Human nature and the seed we plant is not altered when one is born again.
Artful said: Applying this same line of reasoning that flesh (man) cannot enter the Kingdom but that which is born of spirit can; the scripture at 1 Timothy could simply be taken to mean that no man (flesh) could approach God.
The approach to God under the Law Covenant was through the priesthood. The approach to God under the New Covenant is: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Spirit is not an issue in such an approach to God. The Man (not some non-human) Christ Jesus mediates for all men as not everyone that enters this kingdom will be good or even righteous. What they are as human beings will determine that not their belief systems.
Artful said: Matt 6:19,20 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
What we are as human beings will determine our future life. This is something that cannot be stolen from us or consumed by time. The verse does not say that we will go to such a place does it? After all the hope for all mankind is resurrection from the dead as immortal human beings not a change of natures to nonhuman creatures.
Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
And what are angels like? Immortal, undying? Yes, they would be that, but they neither marry nor are given in marriage. So the verse is self explanatory. The verse does not say that we will also share that nature of angels does it? No, it simply teaches that we will enjoy such characteristics described.
Luke 6:23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven.
Does it say we go there? No! But it does teach that our reward will come from that place where Christ now resides. But Luke also wrote concerning such a reward:
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And the verses go on an on like this. If you want me to continue please show from such texts that heaven is a place to which we will go as non-human beings and not just where our hopes and dreams are stored awaiting the immortal human body that will be given them when our Lord returns. And what will we be doing there alone when our Lord promised to return here to rule? Only then we will have something to discuss. After all we do know this about such a place:
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Joseph

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

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