artful

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Posts by artful

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  13

  Questions to ponder - Apostacy

  by JoeSomebody in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a couple questions came to mind as i read some posts.

  i know many of you are not jw's any longer.

  my definition is one that abandons the true worship of jehovah both in action and word, inside and outside the congregation.

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  artful

  Hi Joe....one of many definitions of an apostate as defined by the WTS (not the Bible) is:

  -a Witness who joins the YMCA to use their fitness facilities!
  (see w79 1/1 p30-31 Questions from Readers

  happy reading!
  Artful
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  39

  How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

  by apocalypse in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following information was prepared for the benefit of those who are endeavoring to assist a close friend or relative who is a jehovahs witness.

  it is intended to aid a person who wishes to, in a non-confrontational manner, approach the vital foundational issue with respect to the primary doctrine of jehovahs witnesses.

  it can be done without the recipient of the information even becoming aware of your intentions.

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  artful

  Methinks the smart money is on 607, it is evidentiary, consistent with biblical history and leads to the prophetic date of 1914.
  Now there's an example of circular reasoning if I ever saw one!!

  "607 is accurate because it leads to the prophetic date of 1914....and 1914 is a prophetic date because 607 leads us to it"

  Scholar, you have been trained well!!

  Artful
• 
  39

  How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

  by apocalypse in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following information was prepared for the benefit of those who are endeavoring to assist a close friend or relative who is a jehovahs witness.

  it is intended to aid a person who wishes to, in a non-confrontational manner, approach the vital foundational issue with respect to the primary doctrine of jehovahs witnesses.

  it can be done without the recipient of the information even becoming aware of your intentions.

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  artful

  Setting the chronology of the fall of Jerusalem aside...

  I believe that one of the weakest points in the 1914 argument is that there is no Biblical basis that Daniel's 7 times prophecy directed to the Babylonian king had any "greater fulfillment" at all. Daniel certainly did not indicate this to be so. Nor did Jesus when quoting from the book of Daniel. This "greater fulfillment" mentality which is used ad nauseam in the current WTS Isaiah books is purely conjecture on the part of the WTS and their predecessors!

  The convoluted reasoning and cross referencing of unrelated scriptures that is used to arrive at this theory, and the inability of the average JW to explain it certainly speaks volumes about its inherent value (or lack thereof)!

  Artful
• 
  12

  JW's and the YMCA

  by artful in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  my father and mother (both loyal jws and in their 70s) have recently joined a local ymca for it's fitness facility.

  it seems to me that the wts does not look favorably on this organization, possibly to the point of prohibiting jws from joining it.

  i have searched for information online but to no avail.

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  artful

  Thank you very much Blondie!

  That's exactly the kind of crap I thought I might find!!!

  I will be sure to warn my parents to keep their membership to themselves.

  Thanks again for all of your input!

  Cheers
  Artful

  P.S. Blondie: I enjoy your "alternate" WT study articles in the "Study Articles" forum ;-)
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  12

  JW's and the YMCA

  by artful in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  my father and mother (both loyal jws and in their 70s) have recently joined a local ymca for it's fitness facility.

  it seems to me that the wts does not look favorably on this organization, possibly to the point of prohibiting jws from joining it.

  i have searched for information online but to no avail.

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  artful

  My father and mother (both loyal JWs and in their 70s) have recently joined a local YMCA for it's fitness facility. It seems to me that the WTS does not look favorably on this organization, possibly to the point of prohibiting JWs from joining it.

  I have searched for information online but to no avail. Since my computer is a Mac, I don't have access to search the WTS CD archive for any references to the YMCA. I'm sure there were some articles about it in the Watchtower (possibly from the '70s).

  I don't want to curb my parents enthusiasm in their new found fitness endeavors, and I'm certainly not interested in this because I really care about the WTS position on the YMCA. Rather, if there is any prohibition of YMCA membership, I would like to suggest to my parents that they avoid any discussions about this to other JW's who may put them off.

  On the other hand, if there is no WTS prohibition then I would like to instruct my parents this, and suggest that they could cheerfully tell any JW "friends" where to stick their comments!!

  Cheers and thanks for sharing your resources!
  Artful
• 
  33

  Subtle Control Methods

  by James2300 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  there have been a few threads on the subject of whether witnesses are a high control group or a cult.

  some of the more overt methods of control have been mentioned, such as direct statements in the watchtower, the practice of disfellowshipping, the power elders have, and so on.

  the results of these control techniques have also been mentioned; for example, many mention the intimidation, humiliation, fear, and powerlessness they felt either as a witness or while trying to leave.

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  artful

  Some great points here James!

  Re: the Watchtower format. I have noticed that in many of the recent WT articles the focus has been on organizational loyalty. As you mention, the article will start with some benign comments or illustrations and then proceed to the real purpose of the article...to promote the authority of the FDS. They have been spending an awful lot of time drawing parallels between themselves and the Old Testament leaders (the faithful ones of course). This constant equation of their authority with, say that of Moses, has been a very effective form of indoctrination that there is no life outside of the WTS and there can be no loyalty to God without loyalty to his "visible organization".

  To demonstrate how effective and subtle this mind control method is, this weekend I had a discussion with my In-laws who recently had a two-day convention. They were so impressed with the CO's comment from the platform that "our loyalty is not to a work, or an organization but to Jehovah". They said that this gave them such a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside. I normally try not to enter into a JW discussion with them, but I just couldn't let this one go! I said that I couldn't understand how this CO could make a comment which implies that one could be loyal to God without being loyal to the WTS! I mentioned that the WTS repeatedly states that there is no separation in this regard. They quizzed me as to where I had read such a thing...no doubt believing it to have come from some "apostate" source. To their shock, I listed off three recent WT articles as mentioned above.

  They have been so brainwashed, that to them, hearing the phrase "Trust in God" is the exactly the same as hearing "Trust in the Organization" but they don't even realize it!!!

  Cheers
  Artful
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  57

  JW Rules That Are Just "Too Much"!

  by Ephanyminitas in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm curious: what rules have you dealt with that were just "too much" -- whether they were "official" (i.e.

  in print) or not?.

  i think a good, general one is r-rated movies.

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  artful

  Aside from the many points mentioned above.

  1. Being 'stongly advised' by family and Elders not to have my brother whom I was closest to as my best man OR MC at my wedding. Although 10 years my senior and living a clean, moral life with his wife and 2 kids, he was not a baptised JW, and therefore prohibited from such priviledges as per a WTS article (sometime in the late 80's) which discussed the 'qualifications' necessary for the 'Master of the Feast' and wedding party.

  What a disgrace! What regret I have over that.

  2. Not being able to raise a glass and say 'cheers' at work functions or when with friends. I now make a point of doing this whenever I am around family, or former JW associates. Recent "new light" has made this semi-acceptable in JW circles - although they will still glance around sheepishly if they do it!

  cheers
  artful
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  3

  Military and Scripture

  by simplesally in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ok, i was reading on another thread and the poster brought up a side point that made me go "omg"!!!.

  here's the quote:i would serve in the military as did cornelius, a roman army officer who converted to christianity ... and who was never required to leave the military, nor is there in record that he left the roman army.

  it never dawned on me that cornelius was 1)an army officer and 2)no scripture demands his resignation of said position.. any thoughts?

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  artful

  Yes very interesting indeed!

  Especially considering he was the first of the Gentiles to be called 'clean' by God, receive Holy Spirit and be baptized without delay by Peter! All this without any mention of him having to first give up his office.

  cheers
  artful
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  25

  Out with a bang....plus Elders (Gestapo) visit....

  by TheApostleAK in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just da'd myself the other day...announcement tonight.. -------------------------------.

  alan xxxxxxxxxx.

  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

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  artful

  Alan.

  Great letter! I must say that your comments concur with many of my thoughts and experiences over the past 6 months. Thanks for the encouraging words.

  cheers
  artful
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  4

  Memorial Supper - A child's perspective

  by Atreyu in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  at the memorial supper, i took along my little daughter, nearly 6. she's not familiar with kingdom halls and what's going on there.

  to make her comfortable, i let her bring a favourite "teddy bear", actuallay a cow.. she found it very peculiar that the bread and wine was passed from hand to hand without anyone eating or drinking.

  she asked a lot and i tried to explain.

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  artful

  LOL! She's got the right idea....out of the mouth of babes!

  cheers
  artful