How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

by apocalypse 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • apocalypse
    apocalypse

    The following information was prepared for the benefit of those who are endeavoring to assist a close friend or relative who is a Jehovahs Witness. It is intended to aid a person who wishes to, in a non-confrontational manner, approach the vital foundational issue with respect to the primary doctrine of Jehovahs Witnesses. It can be done without the recipient of the information even becoming aware of your intentions.

    That issue is the basis in fact, or in this case fiction, regarding the doctrine of a 1914 CE invisible presence of Jesus leading to the appointment of the Watchtower leadership.

    Without the doctrine of 1914, then there is no appointment of the faithful slave. The Watchtower then crumbles. This is basically a summary of the book The Gentile Times Reconsidered turned into a tool.

    Firstly, it is vital that you attempt this only after you have familiarized yourself with the doctrine in the first place. Unfortunately, 99.9% of current JWs have no understanding of this teaching and couldnt explain it if their life depended on it even though its central to the faith. And few go on to understand what was the primary doctrine of the Watchtower Society after they leave. To clarify, you must understand the doctrine with its inherent self- contradictions. I give the following as an aid.

    Basically, the steps in building the false doctrine go as follow.

    1) Babylon was overtaken in 539 BCE (this is true, check encyclopedia)

    Note: The command to "rebuild" the temple was given in 537 by Cyrus which presents a 2 year dilemma for the WTS which they have never resolved.

    2) Jews were in Babylon for 70 years (twisted interpretation of Biblical accounts)

    3) Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE (false date arrived at by 537 +70)

    4) In 1914, 2520 years later, Jesus arrived invisibly to appoint the slave.

    Math: 537BCE 70 + 2520 = 1914CE

    A reference is the below.

    *** w84 4/1 7 1914 a Marked Year-Why? *** How was the chronology figured to mark 1914? The June 1880 issue of the WatchTower magazine explains: The long period of 2520 years and their bitter experience under the dominion of the beasts, (human governments, Dan. vii.) is clearly represented in Dan. iv., by the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar and his bitter experience among the beasts. So we must return to the baffling dream of the Babylonian king to trace its line of chronology to 1914.

    Now, how to use this effectively. You must allow the recipient of this information to poison the well. A Jehovahs Witness is trained to listen to the Watchtower, and the Watchtower attempts to turn this into an issue of choosing Biblical history over secular history even though that is not the case. You must allow the JW to poison the well of secular history, because they are going to need it to establish the Watchtowers false doctrine. Only thing, the JW you are working on doesnt know that.

    They must be led to make a statement to the effect that they reject an astronomically confirmed date. This is the key. This statement an astronomically confirmed date is a quote direct from the Insight on the Scriptures V1 page 453 (see below)

    The error in the Watchtowers calculation is that the Jews were not in exile for 70 years. They were there for about 50. The Bible does not say that they were in exile for 70 years. Instead, the Watchtower twists Biblical statements in a crafty manner such that JWs dont even know what happened after the fact. The Watchtower needs for the Jews to have been in exile in Babylon for 70 years so that they can arrive at their pivotal date of 1914 in their tricky math, thus underpinning their false teaching of a secret coming of Christ, during which time he supposedly appointed the Governing Body as head over Earth.

    What you need to do is pit them with their Biblical date of 607, which is false, against secular history as found in the encyclopedia and based on an astronomically confirmed dating system which says that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 but rather 586

    This destroys the Watchtowers date of 607, then 1914 fails, then the iron fist of the GB fails since 1914 is a meaningless date. The year 586 would bring you to 1934 and they cant change that date.

    Step

    1) Ask the JW how the 1914 date is arrived at.

    Allow them time to respond. They dont have a clue. You need them to try to explain it to you, and they will look a bit foolish for not knowing. Remind them that it is on this date that the whole authority structure of the GB rests. No 1914, then no GB

    They will attempt to research by using the Reasoning from the Scriptures book. They will use 607 BCE.

    2) Point out that the astronomically confirmed date for the fall of Jerusalem is 586, not 607. Show them the encyclopedia. This will start to stir up the juices. Mention that the math would then bring you to the year 1934 instead of 1914.

    At this point, they are going to go back to the drawing board. Showing them the encyclopedia has put a hole in their world and they are going to try to fill it by doing research. They will find some in one of the Societys publications. That publication will pit the 607 date against the 586 date, and force the JW to accept as correct the supposed Biblical date over and above the astronomically confirmed date of 586. Make sure to use this quote often. Its going to come back on them.

    The research they should find is from the Kingdom Come book as below quoted.

    *** kc 188-9 Appendix to Chapter 14 *** But the Bible itself provides even more telling evidence against the claim that the 70 years began in 605 B.C.E. and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. As mentioned, if we were to count from 605 B.C.E., the 70 years would reach down to 535 B.C.E. However, the inspired Bible writer Ezra reported that the 70 years ran until the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland. (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:21-23) Historians accept that Cyrus conquered Babylon in October 539 B.C.E. and that Cyrus first regnal year began in the spring of 538 B.C.E. If Cyrus decree came late in his first regnal year, the Jews could easily be back in their homeland by the seventh month (Tishri) as Ezra 3:1 says; this would be October 537 B.C.E.

    However, there is noreasonableway of stretching Cyrus first year from 538 down to 535 B.C.E. Some who have tried to explain away the problem have in a strained manner claimed that in speaking of the first year of Cyrus Ezra and Daniel were using some peculiar Jewish viewpoint that differed from the official count of Cyrus reign. But that cannot be sustained, for both a non-Jewish governor and a document from the Persian archives agree that the decree occurred in Cyrus first year, even as the Bible writers carefully and specifically reported.Ezra 5:6, 13; 6:1-3; Daniel 1:21; 9:1-3.

    3) It starts to get interesting. Ask them exactly how they arrive at this supposed Biblical date of 607.

    They will count back from 539. Appear perturbed. Dont be a smart aleck.

    4) Introduce again the statement that the 586 date is an astronomically confirmed date. Get them to reject that dating method. Explain what an astronomically confirmed date is, how archeologists dig up things that have writing on them. These writings talk about Kings and what eclipses took place during their rule. Using astronomy, the accurate and stable movement of the heavenly bodies, scientists can accurately put dates on these astronomical events like eclipses and when certain stars were visible in what areas on Earth. Make them reject it. Leave them no room.

    5) Bring the hammer down. Put to them this next vital question. From where do you get the date 539 to count back 70 years to 607 from.

    Now they are in a pickle. Make them tell you where the Bible says the 539 date. They cannot. They will be forced to do more research to fill this latest hole. They will again turn to the Societys publications. They will find the below information in the Insight

    *** it-1 453 Chronology *** A Babylonian clay tablet is helpful for connecting Babylonian chronology with Biblical chronology. This tablet contains the following astronomical information for the seventh year of Cambyses II son of Cyrus II: Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2/3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached. (InschriftenvonCambyses,KnigvonBabylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; SternkundeundSterndienstinBabel, by F. X. Kugler, Mnster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71) These two lunar eclipses can evidently be identified with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzers CanonofEclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 B.C.E. This is an astronomically confirmed date.

    Since the seventh year of Cambyses II began in spring of 523 B.C.E., his first year of rule was 529 B.C.E. and his accession year, and the last year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon, was 530 B.C.E. The latest tablet dated in the reign of Cyrus II is from the 5th month, 23rd day of his 9th year. (BabylonianChronology,626B.C.A.D.75, by R. Parker and W. Dubberstein, 1971, p. 14) As the ninth year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon was 530 B.C.E., his first year according to that reckoning was 538 B.C.E. and his accession year was 539 B.C.E.

    At this point, the JW is finished. When they try to establish 539 as a credible Biblical date, they will find NOTHING. Instead, they will find the work quoted above. They will stare at the statement in bold type and underlined.

    Now, you have added to the mix that which is necessary. Let it go to work. Sleepless nights will ensue. They will make another attempt to prove is, hoping to convince themselves.

    They will fail.

    Basically, if a JW wants to reject 586 and secular history and astronomically confirmed dates in favor of supposed Biblical dates, then they lose the 539 date also. Hence, they have no starting point to count 70 years back to.

    They are left in a conundrum. They would have to selectively reject or accept secular history based on the Societys whim. If they reject 586, then they have to reject 539. If they reject 539, then they need to reject 607 based on the math counting from that date. Hence, no 607. Then no 1914. Then no GB.

    Itll be interesting.

    Edited by - apocalypse on 15 December 2002 6:42:37

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    This info is good to know...thanks. There have been several discussions re this, but never in such detail. Now I have some 'ammunition' to use with my JW friend.

  • yesidid
    yesidid

    Dear apocalypsel

    Thanks for all the work involved in getting that info in print. I have downloaded and will digest it later.

  • Imbue
    Imbue
    Babylon was overtaken in 537 BCE (this is true, check encyclopedia)

    Babylon fell in 539 and not 537.

    http://www.disfellowshipped.org/607eng.htm

  • TR
    TR

    Very good work, but the truly braindead 'hovah will still cling to the WTS as the "truth". Most times it takes more than confusing chronology to get them to think. I believe that a truly intellegent 'hovah will do the research above, and start making his/her exit from 'hovahville. The "Gomer" class will say after all is said and done, "I still believe it is the truth".

    TR

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Matt 24:36 (NIV) "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

    The brothers at my last judicial committee read this scripture with me, twice. I explained it to them, simply.

    Nothing but blank stares.

    Thanks for the work, apocalypse. Please don't beat your head against a wall when you face intransigent mindset.

    Craig (of the "gave the 1914 talk so many times he lost count"class)

    Edited by - onacruse on 15 December 2002 2:51:25

  • apocalypse
    apocalypse

    A while ago, an elder in our hall gave the NEW AND IMPROVED 1914 talk.

    He got to the point about the "generation" and tried like hell to explain the new teaching. He couldn't. It was pathetic.

    After several failed attempts at explaining the OZ generation, he reached down to the lectern and grabbed the Watchtower bound volume and proceeded to read it word for word.

    Can you imagine. He's giving the talk on this and cannot explain it. He has to read from the tower.

    If he couldn't understand this "new light", then how could anybody in the pews understand it?

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    apocalypse: And perhaps, what's even more pathetic is those of us who gave such talks and firmly believed that we DID understand it!

    If called upon, at this very moment (suspending my common sense), to give a talk explaining and defending the "new light" about the generation...well, it would be no problem for me at all.

    Include my common sense, and I would be laughing so hard I wouldn't even be able to get on the stage.

    But they don't hire us for our common sense, eh?

    Craig

  • GermanXJW
    GermanXJW

    Carl Olof Jonsson's book was crucial to me but I had to experience that most JW don't give a damn about chronology.

  • MYOHNSEPH
    MYOHNSEPH

    Excellent work, apocalypse. But, have you ever heard the quip, "My mind's made up, so don't try to confuse me with facts!" Unfortunately, that's the attitude of most of the JW rank and file. The fact of the matter is, most of the faithful have only a very superficial grasp of what they preach, especially in areas such as chronology. Furthermore, they feel no particular need for a deeper understanding. They just let "the faithful and discreet slave" understand it for them. But whether or not one is able to get this information across to any active JW, it certainly serves to sharpen the vision of those who have begun to peek through the veil.

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