Posts by OrphanCrow

12

Saturday, Elders response to Royal Commission

by umbertoecho in

on saturday the elder and his wife turned up.

i have my reasons for not turning them away at the moment, at least, not until the completion of the rc.. i asked him about his thoughts on the rc.

he said that he thought it was easy and nothing to worry about.

OrphanCrow

Am I the only one getting that ad at the bottom of this thread? The one that says "Prevent Elder Abuse"????

Holy crap...someone needs to fix that robot or whatever is used to pick the catch words that decide which ads that come up on this forum!!!

12

Saturday, Elders response to Royal Commission

by umbertoecho in

on saturday the elder and his wife turned up.

i have my reasons for not turning them away at the moment, at least, not until the completion of the rc.. i asked him about his thoughts on the rc.

he said that he thought it was easy and nothing to worry about.

OrphanCrow

Oh my, Umber... how do those JWs even speak when their heads are buried so deep???

You would think they would get sand in their mouths.

*pssst...can someone make that woman's dress longer? It is scandalous!!!

33

Dr Applewhite and Conti's case

by Viva la Vida in

this is from conti's appeal veredict:.

monica applewhite, a clinical social worker and an expert on child sexual abuse, testified for defendants that watchtowers policy against disclosing private information .

very closely mirror[ed] the codes of ethics of the national association of social workers and the american counseling association.

OrphanCrow

pubsinger: I don't think we should make too much about Applewhite being a Catholic. Unless anyone has info otherwise, showing that she's 'devout and practising', that could just mean she is a Catholic by family or upbringing.
it is ironic from a JW perspective but from her standpoint it may be of little significance.

Actually, the outcome of this hearing into the WTS procedures does have significance for the Catholic Church. How judicaial hearings are conducted internally mirrors many of the Catholic Church responses - their judicial systems have much in common.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/400680004/jehovahs-witnesses-royal-commission-catholic-church

The Catholic Church itself has a vested interest in the Royal Commission's investigation into the organizational structure of the JWs.

65

[Day 4 - 31/7]The Royal Commissions investigation of child sexual abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses. + VIDEO

by C0ntr013r in

by popular demand i give you day 4, and i will finally get a couple of days to sleep .

part 1 has been uploaded and part 2,3 and 4 will soon be available.. part 1:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lmlcdqesa0&list=plpq6kz-aghvqbadlzmqn26dvmpzddxlui&index=11.

OrphanCrow

ucantnome: The Catholic Church is next.
why does that matter?

Because what happens with the JWs will have an impact on the structure of the Catholic Church. Why do you think Applewhite supported the JW organizational structure? It is because the Catholic Church's structure will also be affected by how well the WTS' judical system stands up in this inquiry.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/400680004/jehovahs-witnesses-royal-commission-catholic-church

17

The JW's 2 witness rule applied to Molestation is wrong AND HERE'S WHY

by wozza in

this is not the first time i've written about this, but with the royal commission happening here in australia, and having fought against the wts on this problem of molestation in the wts over a period of 15 years i feel a need to explain what i found which contradicts what the wts says and the way they handle cases within their society.. i am not going to give the history of my involvement but just state simply why no-one can believe what the wts says ,and we all know the scriptures they use to not handle cases of molestation properly , so here goes , it's not tricky or hard to understand i think, but just use the bible against them (hope this is used at the commission).. i,m using the revised berkely version in plain english here ,.

the context is law giving in the book of deuteronomy ch 22 : vs 22 - 27. vs 22 "when a man is surprised abed with a married woman,they shall both die ,the man who lay with the woman and the woman too; you shall wipe out the evil from israel.".

so this is easy to grasp ,man sleeps with married woman ,judged to die -they got caught.. next vs 23- 24 "when a man comes upon a girl in the city, who is a virgin betrothed to another , and he lies with her,24 you shall bring them both to the gate of the city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not cry out, although the city was all about her, and the man because he violated his neighbour's wife.

OrphanCrow

I don't think that the WTS wants to drop that two witness rule. It would disallow the JW elders from having free rein to "collect evidence" on sex crimes with minors.

What would they do then if they didn't have free and ready access to child sex stories? Their child sex case files would get pretty skinny - less child sex reading material for all those men...less stories being told to them... Where would the WTS male authoritative structure get their child sex fix?

The JW judicial process has to be dismantled - it is perverted the way that elders sit in rooms and discuss child sex and even force the child to tell them all about it - details included. Sick. Sick. sick.

16

Does the .Org have the gall to ignore the RC?

by Lemonp in

i have been mulling over the options that the wt has to take in regard to child abuse.

in my mind there are the following ones:.

1. overhaul their entire system, and apologize to all abuse victims.

OrphanCrow

LisaRose: That is a very good idea Orphan Crow, but I don't know if anyone in the ex JW community has the expertise or ability to do that. Perhaps we in the ex JW community could work with organizations already in place to help them connect with victims.

Yes, there has already been some amazing work done to help JW victims. But maybe a help line that is specific to JWs would be benefical - manned by people who have the knowledge and expertise to handle the unique problems that JW victims face. The organizational structure is already in place - the JW focus just has to be strengthened and enlarged.

If the phone number/contact was put out in schools and places that a JW child could be exposed to it - it may offer an alternative place for a JW kid to report the abuse to - they wouldn't feel like the elders were the only place to go for help.

16

Does the .Org have the gall to ignore the RC?

by Lemonp in

i have been mulling over the options that the wt has to take in regard to child abuse.

in my mind there are the following ones:.

1. overhaul their entire system, and apologize to all abuse victims.

OrphanCrow

cattails: They will outwardly comply with whatever they're required to, and internally the COs will come around directing how its really to be done.

Then maybe it is time that the exJW community and concerned others, need to take a more proactive role in helping the victims. So much has been done so far by people like Barbara, but maybe it is time to offer some solutions that have a directed approach aimed at JW victims.

I am thinking of something someone had posted on an earlier thread about "help lines". Maybe a "JW victim help line" that can be accessed 24 hours a day - a mobile crisis unit that can send for immediate help and make appearances with the victims in their confrontations with elders. The victims need representation - they are entitled to legal counsel when they are forced to appear in judicial hearings. They need more than just moral support - they need legal support.

We have kids-help-lines here in Canada, I would like to see a kids help line that is aimed directly at JW victims. The JW elders have their help line all set up and functioning - they burn up the phone lines to the branch for legal advice. But, the victim has no "help line". We need to change that.

The WTS may very well ignore the findings of this hearing. The rest of the world doesn't have to.

13

The Jehovah's Witnesses, the Royal Commission and the Catholic Church

by OrphanCrow in

a catholic forum has a discussion thread: "jehovah witness now appear with the royal commission".. i have made the comment before that dr. applewhite's appearance in support of the jws is not surprising if you consider that the royal commissions' findings will impact the structure of the cathoilc church as well.

the catholic church has a vested interest in the jws' hearing - if the jws are forced to change their organizational structure, so will the catholics.. the following post is an excellent discussion on the similarities and differences between the catholic church and the jws structure.

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=174461.

OrphanCrow

Lol! Truthseeker and Dumpiln...this crow likes to fly around a lot. ;)

Caws back at you!

The Catholic viewpoint is especially interesting to this case.

We look at how this hearing will effect the JWs and the comments on that Catholic forum round out some of the picture for us. The Catholics stand to lose much over what comes out. Like the JWs, they have an internal disiplinary procedure that is integral to the functioning of their church and they both use they bible to back up their structure. This hearing has the ability to attack the underpinings of religious authority.

Applewhite kept asserting that the JWS' system of dealing with abusers was well "above standards for the time". What she is speaking about is the judicial system inside of the JWs. She actually supports their system of disipline - because it is modelled so closely to the Catholic Church.

What Applewhite fails to do is place the JWs (and by extension, the Catholic Church) into the larger sphere of social justice. Her assessment is abuser centered and she fails to account for the effect of the JW judicial system on the victims.

And she fails to evalute the effectiveness of that judicial system that she claims was so much better than any other church. If it was so good, how come none of the 1006 abusers that were identified by the Commission were ever brought to justice? This hearing is pitting the religious justice system against the secular justice system - the human rights abuses within church disiplinary systems are being laid out for all to see.

The potential for abuse of confidential material concerning sex with minors is huge within the JW judicial system. As far as I am concerned, the judicial system should be abolished or at least changed in such a way that victims should never have to tell elders details about crimes committed against them.

I was astounded when Applewhite gave her support to the practice of conducting internal judical meetings "alongside" of criminal investigations. The potential for contamination of the evidence is great when you have bumbling fools, like the elders we have seen so far on the stand, taking a lead in questioning minor children about sex.

At some point in the future, the powers and authority of the JW elder system over women and children has to be dismantled. The collection of evidence by the JW elders shoud be made into a criminal act. They need to be stopped from policing themselves - history proves that their internal police system is harmful and it is time it was made illegal.

The JW judicial system has not worked so far...what makes anyone think that it will work in the future??

13

The Jehovah's Witnesses, the Royal Commission and the Catholic Church

by OrphanCrow in

a catholic forum has a discussion thread: "jehovah witness now appear with the royal commission".. i have made the comment before that dr. applewhite's appearance in support of the jws is not surprising if you consider that the royal commissions' findings will impact the structure of the cathoilc church as well.

the catholic church has a vested interest in the jws' hearing - if the jws are forced to change their organizational structure, so will the catholics.. the following post is an excellent discussion on the similarities and differences between the catholic church and the jws structure.

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=174461.

OrphanCrow

And a discussion on Dr. Applewhite:

The evidence of Dr Monica Applewhite - issue for some Australian dioceses ?

13

The Jehovah's Witnesses, the Royal Commission and the Catholic Church

by OrphanCrow in

a catholic forum has a discussion thread: "jehovah witness now appear with the royal commission".. i have made the comment before that dr. applewhite's appearance in support of the jws is not surprising if you consider that the royal commissions' findings will impact the structure of the cathoilc church as well.

the catholic church has a vested interest in the jws' hearing - if the jws are forced to change their organizational structure, so will the catholics.. the following post is an excellent discussion on the similarities and differences between the catholic church and the jws structure.

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=174461.

OrphanCrow

BreakfastofChamps, I am really enjoying reading the posts over there.

Here is another one. http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=174476

Canon law and the destruction of documents (Main Forum)
by James, Australia, Tuesday, July 28, 2015, 11:57 (5 days ago) @ Desi
There is a parallel here in the Catholic Church. In 1941, William Francis Louis wrote a doctoral thesis called: Diocesan Archives: A Historical Synopsis and Commentary, in which he explained why documents produced under penal trials under the 1917 Code of Canon Law were to be systematically destroyed. The reason behind this was said to be:
“…to protect the secrecy of criminal trials in moral matters, protect the reputation of delinquents by destroying artificial memory of the crime, and to ‘prevent scandal and avoid unjust, unnecessary and embarrassing attacks upon the Church, by making it impossible for such documents to fall into the hands of her enemies."
“There we may need to ask, in an extreme case, should the process even begin. Should the statement be taken? There may be cases that appear to be so sensitive that it is in the best interests of the parties, or one of them, and of the Church, that the documents not be created in the first place.”
There is one important difference between canon law and civil law. Both civil law and canon law provide for order in the affairs of the State and the Church respectively. But civil law has as its end purpose the good of the community. The end purpose of canon law, according to the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law is the spiritual good of the members of the Church and ultimately their eternal salvation. The very last canon in the 1983 Code of Canon Law provides that “the salvation of souls…must always be the supreme law of the Church.”
One result of that is described by James A. Coriden, one of the authors of the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law,:
“Actions which are taken in contravention of canonical rules still very often achieve their basic religious purposes.”
Lucas could also justify his advice about not commencing the preliminary inquiry in “an extreme case” on the basis of the canonical doctrine of epikeia, from which the English civil law notion of equity is derived. Epikeia or canonical equity covers a situation where there is a “lacuna” in the law, and is based on the presumed intention of the legislator in a situation where canon law does not adequately achieve its particular purpose. Canon law cannot achieve its particular purpose of avoiding the scandal of child sexual abuse by clergy where the civil laws of a particular country do not recognize any form of privilege for documents created by canonical tribunals. The canonical purpose of avoiding scandal could best be achieved by not having anything in writing.
Canon law has a much richer intellectual heritage than the rules of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is easy to see the connection between them, and how they arrived at the same decisions in terms of keeping allegations of child sexual abuse away from the civil authorities.