Having just read what was written at the link you posted, I'm curious, what did you find most faith strengthening?
aChristian
JoinedPosts by aChristian
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faith in God...
by speechless ini admit i am often as an exjw troubled in my faith of god, his eternal existence, and his eternal purpose.
today, my soul was very troubled and, by whether by chance or by god's arm, i was led to the following discussion: .
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=proof+christ+rose&start=30&hl=en&selm=noahdove-ya023480001608980947250001%40news.lightspeed.bc.ca&rnum=36
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Was 587B.C. the first destruction of jerusalem?
by compton inall the footnotes in most bibles point to this date, as the final fall of jerusalem.
if this is the correct,this date means this is when the 2,520 days of years commenced.
in daniel chapter 4.the seven times.
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aChristian
Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon in either 587 or 586 BC. The only reason there is any doubt at all about the exact date, 587 or 586, is not because there is a problem with secular historical records for this period of time, but because the Bible itself is not absolutely clear as to whether this happened in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or his 19th year as king.
But even if we put aside the fact that the Watchtower Society is wrong about the date of Jerusalem's destruction, which they certainly are, their Daniel 4/"Gentile Times"/1914 doctrine still has more holes in it than a 500 lb. piece of Swiss cheese.
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Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man
by plmkrzy ini understand that a lot believe that micheal and jesus are one in the same some believe that jehovah and jesus are one in the same some believe that one is the son of god yadda yadda yadda.. would some of you please address or post your reasons for believing that micheal the arc angel was not gods first creation and why he couldn't be the one sent to us to be born as a man and become our savyor?
why would he not have another name fitting his role as a man on earth?
he obviously wouldn't be living on earth as a child growing up as an angel.
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aChristian
Dakota,
You asked: Why would Jesus descend from heaven with the voice of one lower than himself?
Michael will anounce Christ's return as he leads a procession of angels. Remember, Christ will return with "all the angels with him." The same verse also tells us that Christ's return will be announced by a "trumpet's call." Does this mean Jesus is a trumpet?
You spoke of "the message of God's Kingdom. That being found at John 13:34, 35. Love one another just as I have loved you! When we learn to love one another, in spite of differing views and beliefs, then I feel we have conquered the world and may receive salvation."
I hope you didn't mean that literally. Love is certainly very important. But it is not THE message of God's kingdom. And showing endless love to everyone will not gain us salvation.
We can discover the real message of God's kingdom by looking at what the apostles preached. The apostle Paul said, "We preach Christ crucified." In fact, Paul said that in his ministry he had "resolved to know nothing" "except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1 Cor. 1:23, 2:2) The apostles spent all their time telling people about Jesus Christ and what He had done for them. The meassage they preached was that if people would only believe in their hearts that Jesus Christ's sacrificial death was a sufficient payment for all their sins, God would forgive them completely for all of their unrighteousness, and He would then give them the gift of eternal life.
Many religions besides Christianity also preach the need for us to love one another. However, unless we put our faith in Jesus Christ and in the power of His sacrificial death to pay for all of our sins, all the love we show to others and all the good works we perform on their behalf will be as valuable in gaining salvation as a pile of dirty rags.
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Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man
by plmkrzy ini understand that a lot believe that micheal and jesus are one in the same some believe that jehovah and jesus are one in the same some believe that one is the son of god yadda yadda yadda.. would some of you please address or post your reasons for believing that micheal the arc angel was not gods first creation and why he couldn't be the one sent to us to be born as a man and become our savyor?
why would he not have another name fitting his role as a man on earth?
he obviously wouldn't be living on earth as a child growing up as an angel.
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aChristian
Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. Read Hebrews chapter 1. The whole chapter makes it quite clear that Jesus was not and is not an angel. Verse 13 asks, "To which of the angels did God ever say, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enimies a stool for your feet'?" The answer to this rhetorical question, which is made quite clear in the previous 12 verses, is obviously, "None."
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Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man
by plmkrzy ini understand that a lot believe that micheal and jesus are one in the same some believe that jehovah and jesus are one in the same some believe that one is the son of god yadda yadda yadda.. would some of you please address or post your reasons for believing that micheal the arc angel was not gods first creation and why he couldn't be the one sent to us to be born as a man and become our savyor?
why would he not have another name fitting his role as a man on earth?
he obviously wouldn't be living on earth as a child growing up as an angel.
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aChristian
Dakota,
You wrote: I doubt too many here are still wearing JW glasses. Just becuase we may see and agree with some of their beliefs does not constitute being misled by them. May I recommend you remove the glasses of traditional orthodoxy and then view the Bible.
I'm not wearing any. I was a JW for 30 years. I am now a Christian, nothing more. I have several "unorthodox" understandings. However, believing like the JWs, that no part of us survives our deaths is not one of them. The Bible clearly teaches that our "spirits" do survive our deaths. I notice that you did not refute any of the scriptural arguments I made for this fact.
You wrote: If our souls go off to heaven, why does every church teach Matthew 5:5, The meek shall inherit the earth?
Revelation 5:10 tells us in nearly all translations of the Bible, except for the JW NWT, that those who will rule as kings and priests with Christ will do so "on the earth."
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NEW LIGHT! Earthquakes-3-22-02 Awake!
by messenger inwell we now have another ray of new light that has flashed forth.
it is a new teaching regarding earthquakes.
for close to eighty-five years now the core believe of jehovahs witnesses has been the last days teaching that earthquakes have increased in intensity and frequency since 1914. no longer, now it seems it has gone the way of the generation that would not die who were alive in 1914. now we have the great new discovery that there were not more or stronger earthquakes since 1914, almost 40 years after experts and many good men were disfellowshipped for saying otherwise.
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aChristian
Many Christian sects have long believed that Jesus himself said that worsening world conditions such as crime, wars, contagious disease, earthquakes and famine would be signs that he was about to return, or in the case of JWs that he had returned.
However, Jesus said no such thing. Read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 carefully and you will find what Jesus was really saying. His point was that such conditions would exist all the way up to the time of his return and would not be signs of his return at all. In fact, he warned his disciples that they should not be worried by such things. He said, "These things must take place but the end will not come right away." (Luke 21:9) He compared the difficult times to come to "birth pains." (Mt. 24:8) For just as a woman must often undergo a long painful period of time before she finally gives birth, so Jesus indicated that our world had much pain to endure before he would finally return.
Christ's disciples had asked him for a sign of his return. In answering their question he, in effect, said, "The sign you have asked for will not be an earthly sign. Things on earth will go on as they always have. There will be a lot of tough times in the years to come, as there always has been. And these difficult times will continue all the way up until the time I return. The 'sign' you have asked me for will appear, not on the earth, but in the sky." (Matt. 24:30)
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Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man
by plmkrzy ini understand that a lot believe that micheal and jesus are one in the same some believe that jehovah and jesus are one in the same some believe that one is the son of god yadda yadda yadda.. would some of you please address or post your reasons for believing that micheal the arc angel was not gods first creation and why he couldn't be the one sent to us to be born as a man and become our savyor?
why would he not have another name fitting his role as a man on earth?
he obviously wouldn't be living on earth as a child growing up as an angel.
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aChristian
The JW definition of "death" is total nonexistence. So much so in fact, that the Witness definition of a "resurrection" is God creating a new copy of you from His memory. A copy which they say will have all your old memories but will not include any actual part of the "old you."
Most Christians strongly object to this JW definition of a "resurrection." They say that such a newly created copy of them would not really be them at all. They say that for the "resurrected" person to truly be "them" there must be some continuity of existence from the original person to the resurrected one. They also say that the JW teachings concerning death and resurrection are not biblical. I agree.
The Bible teaches that everyone has a "spirit" within them which survives the death of their body and "returns to God who gave it" at the time of their death. (Ecl. 12:6,7) If this is not the case then Jesus' words recorded in Matthew 10:28 make no sense. There we find that Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." If we are, in effect, nothing but bodies, as JWs teach, and if no part of us survives our deaths, as JWs also teach, then those who kill our bodies do, in fact, kill our souls. But as I said, the scriptures indicate otherwise. For instance, Luke 23:46 tells us that just before breathing his last breath, "Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' " And Acts 7:59 tells us that "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' " Do you really think that when Jesus and Stephen spoke the words they did that they thought no part of them was going to survive the death of their bodies?
You may also want to read 1 Samuel 28:7-20 without wearing JW glasses. There we find that after the death of Samuel, Saul consulted a spirit medium in order to seek Samuel's advise. This passage of scripture clearly indicates that Saul's attempt to contact Samuel in this way, following Samuel's death, was successful. Verse 15 tells us what the departed "Samuel said to Saul." Verse 16 also tells us what "Samuel said" at the time. Verse 20 tells us that, following their conversation, Saul was "filled with fear because of Samuel's words." JWs say this must have been a demon impersonating Samuel. But this passage of scripture says nothing of the sort. Rather, it repeatedly tells us that "Samuel" himself was the one who was then speaking to Saul. For reasons which are quite clear to anyone who reads this entire passage and its larger context, God allowed Saul to successfully communicate with Samuel's "soul" or "spirit" following Samuel's death. Saul could not have done so if no part of Samuel had survived his death.
The scriptures indicate that our "spirits" normally "sleep" following our deaths, prior to the time we are resurrected. (Acts 7:60; 1 Thes. 4:14,15) Thus we can understand Samuel's comment to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (1 Sam. 28:15) I believe that the Bible indicates that a "resurrection" occurs when a person's departed spirit is again united with a body of some sort. (A spirit and a body together form a "soul.") In the case of Samuel, evidently God allowed his spirit to temporarily inhabit and speak through the body of the witch of Endor. To me, this Bible passage and others indicate that our departed spirits remain unconscious or "asleep" until they are put into a new body, much like a piece of computer software remains "inanimate" until it is "animated" by a computer's hardware.
JWs love to quote a verse which says that "the dead are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecl. 9:5) But there is a big difference between a person being "asleep" or unconscious and a person being nonexistent, as JWs say all who have died are. As I think I have shown, the scriptures indicate that JWs are wrong about this, and that there is, in fact, a continuity of existence from the original person to the resurrected one. And in the case of the preexistent Christ, a continuity of existence from the heavenly person to the earthly one.
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feet of iron and clay
by edward gentry inneed a take from you intensive research boys (and girls).
on daniel 2 verse 43 wherin it says:.
"whereas thou sawest iron mixed with mirey clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men,but they shall not cleave one to another".
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aChristian
What is represented by the feet of iron and clay spoken of in Daniel 2? To answer this question I think it helps to take a close look at the first four governments which were represented by the statue's head, its chest and arms, its belly and thighs, and its legs. They are widely understood to be Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Were these political powers represented as a part of that statue simply because of their political and military might? I don't think so.
Four heads of a seven headed beast in Revelation are also thought to represent these four governments, along with two other governments which came before them, Egypt and Assyria. I believe that determining what all six of these governments had in common may help us identify the government that is represented by the statue's feet of iron and clay and the seventh head of the beast in Revelation. Besides being strong political and military powers what did they have in common? The answer to this question seems clear to me. They all dominated and controlled ALL of God's covenant people.
Egypt enslaved all the Israelites. Assyria first captured Samaria, the capital of the ten-tribe nation of Israel, took all of northern Israel's residents as captives and repopulated their land with captives taken from its other conquests. Assyria then forced the remaining kingdom of Judah to submit to its authority in several ways, including paying it heavy tributes in order to avoid receiving the same treatment given to the ten-tribe kingdom. Babylon desolated the land of Judah and took all of its people as captives to Babylon. Though Cyrus freed the Jewish people and allowed them to return to Jerusalem, later Persian kings forcibly stopped the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple, adversely affecting the spiritual lives of all of God's people. Between the years 168 and 165 BC Syrian king Antiochus IV of the Grecian empire completely outlawed all practices of the Jewish religion under penalty of death. And, as we know, Rome not only executed Jesus Christ but entirely outlawed Christianity throughout the Roman empire, greatly affecting the lives of every Christian then on earth.
With these things in mind, I believe the feet of iron and clay most likely represent a world government yet to come which will outlaw Christianity and persecute all Christians on earth. For only a truly World Government could do such a thing today. Since, unlike the situation that existed in ancient times, God's covenant people now live in every corner of the world. Such a "one world government" will no doubt be a very fragile and unstable alliance, much like a material made of iron and of clay.
Daniel 2:43 tells us in the NIV Bible that, "The people will be a mixture and will not remain united." I believe this verse is telling us that shortly before God's kingdom replaces all man made governments, the World Government that will then exist, by means of an unstable alliance of all nations on earth, will begin to fall apart.
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KM article "How Will They Hear?"
by DB inperhaps this topic has already been addressed, but at last night's service meeting we discussed an article in the kingdom ministry (jan 2001) called "how will they hear?".
it dealt with the fact that there are perhaps billions worlwide who have not yet been witnessed to.
the articel mentioned that the jws "trust in jehovah" (i guess its always the case when they have no answers) that those people, mostly concentrated in asia (especially china and the sub-continent) will have their hearts read by god and that he will know who are righteous and who are not.
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aChristian
DB,
As you know, the Watchtower Society has long taught that God will soon kill virtually everyone on earth except true Christians. Fortunately, the Bible does not teach that. I believe that when Christ returns He will judge only the Christian world. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. The Watchtower Society teaches that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.
One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of scripture is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with Him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to Himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news preached by those whom Galatians 6:16 calls "the Israel of God." Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.
Remember too that it was only the city of Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD, not the entire Roman empire, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And First Century Jerusalem has long been understood to picture the Christian world, or as Jehovah's Witnesses call it, "Christendom."
Also to be considered is a fact known by most serious students of the Bible, history and science. The flood of Noah's day was a local event, not a global one. God brought that judgment only upon a land that had heard the message of "Noah, a preacher of righteousness," and failed to respond to it. (2 Pet. 2:5) God did not take the lives of those in other parts of then widely populated earth who had not heard Noah's preaching.
Interestingly, Revelation chapters 8 and 9 talk quite a bit about "a third of the world" being judged. And by population, the part of the world claiming Christianity as its religion is almost exactly one-third. (See The World Almanac 1998, page 654)
If this understanding is correct, that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world, then Christians, who all have the same "one hope" (Eph. 4:4-6), will then have plenty of people to rule over as they serve as kings with Christ for 1,000 years. And they will also then have plenty of people to help come to know the true God as they serve as His "priests." For that is, after all, what priests do.
The Bible does not tell us exactly what will happen in the future. Because it does not, the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, and my own beliefs on this subject matter, can only be considered speculation. However, I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses should be made aware that there are other ways to understand God's clearly stated intentions to have the meek inherit the earth (Ps. 37:11), and His intentions to have all Christians rule with Christ for 1,000 years, than to change the good news preached by the apostles which offered the same "one hope" to all Christians. (Gal.1:8,9)
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Luke 16:22-23? Explain this to me!
by tabande1 inhello people, i would like to know the take the jw's have on this bit of scripture taken from the kjv of luke 16; 22-23..... 22 and it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried;.
23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth abraham afar off, and lazarus in his bosom.. will someone tell me the spill on this piece of scripture?
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aChristian
Moxy,
I don't believe in a literal Hell. Very few Christians really do, as even most Christians who believe in the traditional concept of "Hell" will admit that the flames of "Hell" are symbolic of the suffering a person who is forever seperated from God will experience. However, I doubt that even if that concept was first put into words and writing in ancient Persia, that fact alone proves the traditional concept of "Hell" is in error.
Some say that the idea that our earth revolves around the sun and not vise versa is of Polish origin. (Copernicus was a Polish astronomer who lived in about the year 1500) And, as I well know being part Polish, some people do not speak too highly of the the Polish intellect. : ) However, regardless of the place of this idea's origin, we know the idea is true.