Hello people, I would like to know the take the JW's have on this bit of scripture taken from the KJV of Luke 16; 22-23....
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Will someone tell me the spill on this piece of scripture?
Luke 16:22-23? Explain this to me!
by tabande1 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tabande1
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Gopher
Here's the WT Society's take on these verses, from the book "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", published in 1982.
*** pe 88-9 9 What Kind of Place Is Hell? ***
What, then, did Jesus mean when he said in one of his illustrations: “The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom”? (Luke 16:19-31, King James Version) Since, as we have seen, Hades refers to mankind’s grave, and not to a place of torment, it is plain that Jesus was here telling an illustration or a story. As further evidence that this is not a literal account but is an illustration, consider this: Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on? Moreover, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger? What, then, was Jesus illustrating?
20 The rich man in the illustration stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God’s Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910) -
aChristian
Tabande,
You wrote: I would like to know the take the JW's have on this bit of scripture.
I have not been a JW in quite a while. So I don't recall exactly how they interpret this passage of scripture. I know they do not believe that it in any way describes "Hell." I also remember they believe that Lazarus pictured a class of people, true Christians at the time of Christ, who were then looked down upon by another class, the clergy class of the time, whom they say was pictured by the rich man.
That's about all I recall of the JW interpretation. I can, however, tell you how I now understand it. I believe Christ's story of the rich man and Lazarus was not intended by Him to be understood as an actual historical account describing punishment in the afterlife. Rather, I believe Christ intended it to be understood as an allegorical parable. Here's how I understand Christ's story of the rich man and Lazarus, as recorded in Luke 16:19-31.
The rich man pictured the Pharisees who then listened to Christ speak, and other self righteous Jewish people like them who refused to accept Jesus as their long awaited Messiah. The beggar, Lazarus, pictured Jesus Christ Himself. The Pharisees had great spiritual wealth both real, God's word, and imagined, their traditions. To them Jesus appeared as a lowly beggar in need of spiritual food scraps which fell from their table. Jesus was then at the rich man's "gate" so to speak, right in front of them. The name "Lazarus" means "God helps." The Pharisees had long been praying for their Messiah to come. God had sent them Jesus to provide them the spiritual help they had been praying for. "Lazarus" was also the name of a man whom Christ had recently, or would soon, resurrect after being dead for some days. Jesus resurrected Lazarus from a tomb much like the one He Himself would soon rise from. So, in this way also the name Lazarus was quite fitting for the beggar in this parable.
The Lazarus of the parable was covered with sores. This pictured the spiritually sick condition which the Pharisees considered Jesus to be in. The "dogs" who licked Jesus' sores pictured Christ's followers who were considered by the Pharisees to be lowly, unclean, spiritual "dogs." The beggar's death pictured the sacrificial death of Christ. The angels carrying Lazarus to Abraham's side corresponds well with the ascension of Christ to heaven which was accompanied by angels. Abraham pictured God Himself since he was the father of the Jewish people and a man who was willing to sacrifice the life of his own son, Isaac, just as God was willing to do the same with His Son Jesus.
After being taken to heaven Lazarus occupied a position at Abraham's side just as Jesus now occupies a position at God's right hand. The rich man's death pictured the spiritual death which the Pharisees experienced after rejecting Jesus as the Christ. The burial of the rich man represents the fact that the Jewish law and its system of sacrifices would be done away with following Christ's death, leaving the Jews who failed to recognize Jesus as their Messiah no further way to approach God. The rich man then being in "Hades" represented the fact that after Jesus' death the Jews who rejected Christ would be cut off from the land of the living, spiritually speaking.
Following the death of Jesus the Jewish people who rejected Christ experienced great persecution, which the Bible compares to fire. During such times those Jews who failed to recognize Jesus as the Christ continued to pray that God would send them their Messiah to ease their sufferings, just as the rich man begged Abraham to send him Lazarus with water to ease his pain in that fire. Abraham's reply to the rich man was like God's reply to the Jewish people who rejected Christ all these centuries. God has answered their prayers by in effect saying, "In your time you had good things including great spiritual wealth, honor and high praise from men. During that same time your Messiah had bad things including persecution, humiliation, scourging and murder. You now are experiencing many of the bad things your rejected Messiah then experienced. He now has good things including heavenly glory and power. You now ask me to send you the Messiah to ease your sufferings. But I will not send Him to you for you to persecute and reject again. He has earned His place of honor and I will not again subject Him to dishonor."
The chasm between the rich man and Abraham pictured the fact that after Christ's death it would be impossible for the Jewish people who rejected Jesus as their Messiah to approach God or expect God to send them His further help. For as Christ Himself said, "No one comes to the Father except through me." The rich man's request that Abraham send Lazarus back from the dead to his brothers pictured the Pharisee's future insistence that they would not accept Jesus as their Messiah without some kind of extraordinary proof of His indeed being their promised Messiah. But God's response to such requests has been, "They have Moses and the prophets. Since they refuse to accept who the Old Testament writings clearly identify as their Christ it is highly unlikely anything else will convince them that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Old Testament's promised Messiah."
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tabande1
In the 19 verse of this same account states that a "certain" rich man.... That leads us to know that Jesus is giving us an actual acount of a happening.
How did they come up with that explaination? Jesus never said hell was close to heaven. Abraham's bosom was a holding place-a paradise, for those who served God and died. Once Jesus rose from Hell, conquering it, the souls that were in Abrahams bosom went on to be in heaven with our Father.
In the same passage it says that there was "a great gulf fixed" that is one reason why the beggar could not do the deed, (as if he wanted to anyway).
How can people explain away these kinds of verses? I don't understand.
But as I continue to ask questions, I continue to get the answers. Be they ridiculous or not, I still get the the answers!
Did they, the GB, ever read the part in the bible that says, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. -
tabande1
aChristian, God help us to understand. The Jews are the only ones who will have a second chance to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, the Messiah. After the rapture of the church, they will then be given the chance they gave up when they crucified the Christ.
Your belief in the scripture at hand is still shadowing what you were taught as a JW. This account is an actual happening!
No debating here though folks!! I really just wanted to know their take on it. For give me for...no, I won't apologize. Just like I came to learn theyr take, I give mine. No translation needed for me!!!!!! -
aChristian
JWs are not the only ones who understand that "the rich man and Lazarus" was a parable, not a historical tale about Hell.
Even many who believe in a literal Hell do not believe this story was told by Jesus to describe it. That "Lazarus" in the story was meant to picture Jesus Christ Himself seems clear to me for all the reasons I mentioned above, as well as others. Notice that in this story after Lazarus died he was carried by angels to "Abraham's bosom." The Bible tells us that after Christ died He was accompanied by angels when He ascended to "the bosom of the Father." (Acts 1:9-11; John 1:18)
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aChristian
Tab,
You wrote: This account is an actual happening!
I doubt it. The Bible tells us that, "Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable." (Matthew 13:34)
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tabande1
Again, I write v.19, "There was a CERTAIN rich man,...."
Am I missing something or are You? -
aChristian
Tab,
You wrote: Again, I write v.19, "There was a CERTAIN rich man,...."
Am I missing something or are You?I think you are missing quite a bit. For starters, you may want to read some of Jesus' other parables. From His parable of "the rich man and Lazarus" turn back just one page in your Bible to Luke 14. There we find Jesus' parable of "the banquet." However, neither He nor Luke ever specifically said it was a parable. But everyone acknowledges the fact that it was. And no one has ever said that, just because Christ began this parable with the words, "A CERTAIN man was preparing a great banquet ...", He must have been describing an actual event. (Luke 14:16)
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ozziepost
G'day aChristian,
Shouldn't that be either an allegory or a parable? I agree a parable. The WTS attempt to make every small dot and tittle in the parable mean something, i.e. allegory.
Cheers,
Ozzie"If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."
- Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress