Posts by OneEyedJoe

11

Reject WT Thinking - November 2017 WT article commented (p. 20)

by Master_Bob in

i really liked this kind of articles when back in borg, because they address the issues i was most concerned about.

or at least i thought that they address, because they don't.

i marked all the deceptive techniques and logical manipulations they use as a mental exercise and would like to share with you.

OneEyedJoe

Their use of the phrase "fog of information" seems particularly Orwellian to me - they use their newspeak to reverse the meaning of words. Suddenly information is confusing, not illuminating. Just like the 'slave' is the one in control and a 'privilege' is just another task heaped upon your shoulders and 'truth' is really a body of lies.

38

Latest Study Watchtower - JW's NEED to confess to elders

by The Fall Guy in

watchtower november 2017, page 10, paragraph 8 - "today, a christian guilty of serious sin needs to seek the help of congregation elders to recover.

) why is this so important?

first, the arrangement for elders to handle cases of serious sin comes from jehovah, (2nd lie!

OneEyedJoe

I read one bible commentary that said that this verse is talking about literally sick people. Like those needing to be healed. And that they believed prayers of others could make them well. Notice that sins being forgiven is tacked on at the end as a side note. The main point of this scripture is about healing the sick.

I think that's the only honest reading of that scripture. And it makes sense, too, because these writings are all building on top of stories about Jesus and the apostles working miracles and healing people, so why wouldn't there still be some residual faith healing going on? Of course it seems ridiculous to anyone with half a brain these days so that passage gets interpreted as figurative (just like the four corners of the earth, 7 days of creation, and so many more unreasonable passages).

It's also pretty clear that the bit about confessing sins is encouraging a culture of openness and honesty wherein people are up front about things they do wrong and in return they're also willing to be quick to forgiveness. This goes along with the frequent admonition to refrain from judgement - it's a lot harder to be open about passing judgement on someone when everyone knows all the times you didn't do so well yourself.

43

New Announcement At The 2017 - DF'd People To Sit At The Back Of The Hall

by pale.emperor in

has anyone else heard this?

a poster on another thread said it's a new rule brought in at this years convention.. last year they were told to shun even non df people and now this?

a religion cant force someone where to plonk their ass surely?.

OneEyedJoe

I always thought that this was existing policy - I've never seen a DFed person sit anywhere other than the back row or in the back room during meetings.

A religion cant force someone where to plonk their ass surely?

Why not? If the DFed person is at the cult meetings it shows that they either still believe it's the truth or they at least are trying to be reinstated for family. In either case it means that the cult has something on them and if they don't obey it doesn't give them what they want.

12

so confused!!

by whatisthis12 in

is it possible to keep a somewhat relationship with your family if they are witnesses and have a "worldly" girlfriend?

i just posted a post, and found this site to be very helpful.

sorry to repost but my other thread brought up some other questions.

OneEyedJoe

I'll drop another vote in the box for "he's not mentally out of the cult."

Based on the conversations I've seen and been a part of here over the years, it would be very unusual for someone in his position to consider going to a convention just to see his sister's part on it if he really understood the extent of the disgusting nature of the cult. Maybe he doesn't believe it right now. But if his reasons for not believing are shaky and based on emotion or personal experience (which cults are really good at getting people to reinterpret), then those reasons could easily come crumbling down at some later time leaving you in a whirlwind of confusion and ultimately having to make difficult decisions about the future of your relationship/family.

28

My Boyfriend is a recent Ex Jehovah Witness

by whatisthis12 in

i have been dating my boyfriend for almost a year now.

when i met him i had no idea that he was a jehovah witness.

we took a vacation and he lied to his parents about who he was with, and they ended up finding out not only that he way lying, but who i was.

OneEyedJoe

I came in to say something similar as Lisa just did. Be very wary going forward - many members of this forum are people that married an exJW and had children with them only to watch as the cult recaptured their spouse (and sometimes their kids). It's not uncommon for JWs to leave the cult for one reason or another (usually love, but sometimes they'll leave to escape other restrictions) but never truly understand how they were controlled, and what it really is. Unfortunately this condition often leads to these people returning to the cult during a stressful time (new or failed relationships, birth of a child, death of a family member, relocation, etc). To prevent this, it's important that you have a very honest and frank discussion with him about what he thinks of JWs. Is there any part of him that thinks it might still be "the truth" or does he know it's a cult? Don't accept anything less than certainty that he will never go back. If he gives you this certainty, you should ask for his reasons. You want the reasons for him not going back to have absolutely nothing to do with you. His reasons should be some subset or combination of the ones below (there are others, but they're probably less common and more minor)

It's an overly controlling doomsday cult that is full of hypocrisy
It has made many false predictions of the coming of armageddon
It has caused the unnecessary death of tens of thousands of people by pressuring members to reject life-saving medical treatment
It continues to put children at risk through it's policies around child sexual abuse
Its policies on shunning break apart friendships and families and are tantamount to emotional blackmail
Its leadership generally lies and cheats whenever convenient
It is an organization obsessed with money, and money only flows up to benefit the leadership and those close to them.
It uses unethical means of manipulation to control and retain its members
And, bottom line, there is absolutely no way that it is "the truth" nor could it possibly be "god's organization" nor could it ever have been.

These are the sorts of logical, factual reasons that you need to hear to be sure that he will not eventually want to go back, and want you to go with him. If at that time you have children, he'll do his best to indoctrinate them as well. If his reasons are emotional or personal (he was never happy as a JW, he loves you and you're more important, someone in the cult hurt his feelings and made him mad, etc) then that's an ok starting point, but you need to get him to start reading sites like jwfacts.com, jwsurvey.org, this forum and others. Steve Hassan's books (www.freedomofmind.com) are also informative on how cults in general work and that would also go a long way to helping him to understand what's been done to him and why it's not his fault that he was fooled for as long as he was.

In the end, if he refuses to look at any of that information on JWs and fails to agree with what it is, then my best advice for you is to move on. Continuing the relationship would be putting yourself in an extremely risky situation, practically begging for future heartbreak and turmoil. It's painful advice, but it's much easier to move on now than when you have children with him and he's trying to indoctrinate them into a cult that also happens to be a breeding ground for pedophiles.

I'm aware that what I'm saying here will probably seem extreme, but it pains me to see people get wrapped up in this horrible cult if they could've avoided it with the right information at the right time. I wish you nothing but happiness and the best of luck. Hopefully when you talk to him he'll show that he already understands that it's a false cult and you two will be able to move on together (and hopefully he'll be more forthcoming about things in the future, since it seems he's concealed this from you for some time).

32

For Christians: What do you think about an Armagedon and the Afterlife

by John Davis in

i don't mean for anyone to get into argument over this, i just want to hear what people believe.i hope that no one will mock or argue with someone else about their beliefs, i know that i won't in this topic.. i still believe in a christian god, not what jws believe, but believe that there has to be something after this life.

i am not sure about how armageddon would go, would it be like how evangelicals believe with a rapture or timing or anything, though i still believe in a form of armageddon.

i do think that all good people will go to heaven but i don't believe in a hell.

OneEyedJoe

I don't really want to hear from people who don't believe in any form of the afterlife just want to hear from people who believe in a form of the afterlife from an Abrahamic Faith's teachings.

Enjoy your echo chamber.

44

Verifiable proof of Jesus' existance outside the Bible

by unsure in

thought i'd start a separate discussion on the subject.. those who know me know i'm struggling with faith; i want to believe, some days i do but it becomes difficult.. many believers say there is verifiable proof of jesus' existence outside of the bible.. please post this proof..

OneEyedJoe

It's frustrating in the event that it is actually all true and we must believe even if the Bible is all there is.

If the god of the bible really does exist and exists as claimed, namely he is both just and loving, then ask yourself this: If god endowed you with the power of reason and sufficient agency to decide what you believe, and he requires that you believe wholeheartedly in something for which there is no reasonable evidence, could such a god truly be both just and loving?

To put it another way, would such a just and loving god deny you eternal reward if, after living a good life, your only mistake was failure to believe without (and indeed in spite of all) evidence? Live a good life - it's generally rewarding to do so. If by some bizarre coincidence there happens to be an afterlife, then you'll get in or not get in based mostly on whether the god of that afterlife is worthy of any veneration at all.

44

Verifiable proof of Jesus' existance outside the Bible

by unsure in

thought i'd start a separate discussion on the subject.. those who know me know i'm struggling with faith; i want to believe, some days i do but it becomes difficult.. many believers say there is verifiable proof of jesus' existence outside of the bible.. please post this proof..

OneEyedJoe

May I ask why your faith is so dependent on whether or not this man actually existed? Why not consider the fact that there was clearly a huge shift in the first century where hundreds of thousands and even up to millions of people were willing to die and be persecuted over a minority faith both within the realm of Judaism and the Roman Empire. For such a shift in consciousness to have occurred so suddenly within one generation would suggest something real took place.

Why would someone rest their faith on whether or not Jesus existed? Are you seriously asking that? It's the keystone of the entirety of Christian doctrine - if there's no Jesus, there's no salvation. The end. Your argument that lots of people died because of this could easily be applied to JWs - or don't you think that the fact that tens of thousands of JWs were willing to die or let their children die for want of a blood transfusion is convincing evidence of the validity of that belief system?

You can debate whether or not this thing has any real meaning or significance to you or humanity but I think it's pretty evident that something real actually did happen.

You can debate whether or not it had any significance to humanity, but I think it's pretty evident that something real actually happened in 1914, given all the JWs that have died in concentration camps, for refusal of medical treatment or while taking a stand for their neutrality based on their belief in 1914.

44

Verifiable proof of Jesus' existance outside the Bible

by unsure in

thought i'd start a separate discussion on the subject.. those who know me know i'm struggling with faith; i want to believe, some days i do but it becomes difficult.. many believers say there is verifiable proof of jesus' existence outside of the bible.. please post this proof..

OneEyedJoe

The evidence for Jesus seems to pretty much rely entirely on the bible and Josephus. Sometimes you'll also get a list of people from that time that didn't dispute the existence of Jesus and have that presented as evidence for him, but you don't see a lot of folks going around disputing the existence of batman nowadays either, so that's hardly convincing.

On the topic of Josephus - from what (admittedly limited) reading I've done on that, all of his mentions of Jesus are, at best, of questionable authenticity. Stuff written in margins, footnotes added later, that kind of thing. Even if you assume that he did in fact author everything that's attributed to him, he was born after Jesus' supposed death so it'd be a bit like if I were the only independent source to corroborate the existence of Bob Marley.

20

Watchtower says: if your unbelieving relatives think you are in a cult, try to see things from their point of view

by cognisonance in

12 have empathy for unbelieving relatives.

while we may be overjoyed about the bible truths we have learned, our relatives may mistakenly believe that we have been tricked or have become part of a cult.

we should show empathy by trying to see things from their viewpoint and by listening carefully to discern their real concerns.

OneEyedJoe

When I was in, it always bothered me how much effort they seemed to put in to explaining why it wasn't a cult.

Another effect I can see of this, if JWs follow the advice, is that if the unbelieving relatives have only a cursory suspicion that JWs are a cult the JW is going to react in a way that will probably ease their concerns. All the same persecution complex alarms will be going off in the JW's head, but it seems that the goal here is to essentially leave the concerned relative feeling a bit silly. Basically this is saying to put on a show of listening to the other person to make them feel better while internally discounting everything they say so that it won't get any purchase.