Posts by Onager

88

For any that still believe in God and Jesus, what is your reasoning on this matter?

by BourneIdentity in

in the old testament, god was always full of anger and jealousy resulting in the murder of millions of people.

we’re told jesus perfectly reflects his fathers qualities.

why in the new testament does jesus show no hint of anger and jealousy and wanting to kill people?

Onager

Hi Giles Gray,

I was responding to this comment from Page 6 of this thread by TTWSYF:

Respectfully, although you are right as far as each of us are not witness to personal and profound intimate communication / revelation with God, there is still a large amount of evidence.
One example of evidence could be the way the apostles and 90% of the early Christians leaders were tortured to death is evidence. Why die for a lie? To what end?

I thought that the argument that I was responding to was that there is evidence for the existence of God and the first example is the eye witnesses who died as martyrs. I'm not sure what's really going on now since TTWSYF said:

So, I never said that the martyrdom of these witnesses proves that God and the bible are true. My position was/is that their martyrdom DOES prove that Jesus Christ DID rise from the grave because of their testimony.

For me, personally, this is as Thomas Paine said, all hearsay. We know, for a fact, that people have died for beliefs that are incorrect (because people have died for beliefs which contradict each other), so the only reason to accept that these accounts are correct is faith that these particular people are telling the actual truth, not just truth as they see it.

25

If You Could Invite Any 3 people

by new boy in

jw
friends

to dinner living or dead..... who would the be?.

Onager

Miriam Margolyes.

My hero. Straight talking, no nonsense, very funny.

My Grandmother.

Actually would be good to get her back from the dead a few months before the dinner so she could make some of her amazing chutneys and Elderflower champagne for the dinner. Also she could get to see my son (who would be serving so I can get him in too).

Christopher Hitchens

Legend.

88

For any that still believe in God and Jesus, what is your reasoning on this matter?

by BourneIdentity in

in the old testament, god was always full of anger and jealousy resulting in the murder of millions of people.

we’re told jesus perfectly reflects his fathers qualities.

why in the new testament does jesus show no hint of anger and jealousy and wanting to kill people?

Onager

Thanks Giles Gray, yes, that was what I was getting at. The bible is the work of men and it's god is a construction of those that wrote it and those that came after.

My thinking is based on Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, which you can read here:

http://www.deism.com/images/theageofreason1794.pdf

32

What current movies have you seen? Give a little review if possible, aye or nay

by blondie in

jw
friends

newest mib next for me.

i brought myself up-to-date on the older ones on cable.

here's a trailer:.

Onager

Last movie at the cinema I saw was Lego Movie 2. I really enjoyed it. There's appeal for all ages in there, the storyline has progression from the first movie, the world has developed and the characters too. It was a bit messy compared to the first movie, which was tight, but I still enjoyed it enough to buy the dvd.

The next movie we're going to see will be the new Shaun the Sheep movie, Farmageddon. The cinema is so expensive that we only go to movies that my 4 year old wants to see. I wait for my films to come out on dvd...

36

If you saw a governing body member being pummeled would you help them?

by Tenacious in

before you answer; .

think about how they could care less how many families are broken up just to retain their power.

how they could care less if members are driven to suicide because of the deep programming and severe depression or strained family situations.. how they would rather let members die in order to retain their power and refuse to acknowledge their faulty bible reasoning regarding blood.. i could go on and on and on.

Onager

Of course, if you did step in and help them you might get a nice expensive bottle of whiskey as a thank-you...

88

For any that still believe in God and Jesus, what is your reasoning on this matter?

by BourneIdentity in

in the old testament, god was always full of anger and jealousy resulting in the murder of millions of people.

we’re told jesus perfectly reflects his fathers qualities.

why in the new testament does jesus show no hint of anger and jealousy and wanting to kill people?

Onager

TTWSYF: I am saying that the apostles were different in so much as they [and dozens of others] were actual witnesses. They were not convinced because of someone else's words. They believed because THEY SAW.
You really don't see the diff?

I'm not being a smart-alec, but I really don't see any difference. Think about it though, every muslim feels the same about their prophet and companions that got martyred. That's billions of people who feel exactly the same way that you feel about your story, about their story. They say that their prophet did miracles, they say that their eye witnesses believed and had faith to the extent of being martyred.

If you had been born in rural Pakistan, what do you think the odds are that you would be arguing just as strongly for the truth of Islam, using the same arguments you are using now?

88

For any that still believe in God and Jesus, what is your reasoning on this matter?

by BourneIdentity in

in the old testament, god was always full of anger and jealousy resulting in the murder of millions of people.

we’re told jesus perfectly reflects his fathers qualities.

why in the new testament does jesus show no hint of anger and jealousy and wanting to kill people?

Onager

TTWSYF:

I'm not denying other martyrs.
I am denying that your example can compare to the earliest christian martyrs who claimed that ' Jesus indeed did rise from the dead after 3 days and I heard him say that''
That was what the apostles and dozens of others proclaimed unto death They were witnesses of the risen Lord and could not deny it. It wasn't only a faith thing, it was a witness thing too. Convinced by witnessing his resurrection and proclaiming it. Certainly you can see how that is a possible significant difference to someone dying because of anothers' words.

Close companions of Jesus and close companions of Muhammad who both die as martyrs are only different if you start with the claim that Jesus was special. You're trying to prove that Jesus was special though, so you can't start with that.

All of this only goes to prove my point, though, that everyone who professes a faith in any god, primarily has faith in other men first.

Faith that the men who wrote the books were telling the truth.

Faith that the martyrs were right to die for those beliefs.

Faith that every translator, printer, compiler and interpreter did so honestly and without changing the meaning for their own purposes.

Faith that your parents or whoever first told you these beliefs were true wasn't misled.

All believers faith in their god rests on top of a massive pyramid of faith in fallible humans. Humans that we know for a fact were not perfect, were subject to human failings such as a desire for power, control or fame. Again you might say that God preserves his word down through the ages, but that doesn't work because it's this monolithic pyramid of human's version of God that you are invoking.You can't use what's being proposed to prove the proposition.

36

If you saw a governing body member being pummeled would you help them?

by Tenacious in

before you answer; .

think about how they could care less how many families are broken up just to retain their power.

how they could care less if members are driven to suicide because of the deep programming and severe depression or strained family situations.. how they would rather let members die in order to retain their power and refuse to acknowledge their faulty bible reasoning regarding blood.. i could go on and on and on.

Onager

I think I'd be paralysed into inaction by my conflicting feelings.

It's an old man getting beaten up, I'd have to help him.

He's evil though, if it was hitler getting beaten I'd join in.

Would I though? wouldn't I stop the beating so that they could face justice?

But they'll never face justice, they're too sneaky and they have highly paid lawyers, this could be the only justice they'll ever get.

But it's just an old man getting beaten up.

And round and round I'd go...

88

For any that still believe in God and Jesus, what is your reasoning on this matter?

by BourneIdentity in

in the old testament, god was always full of anger and jealousy resulting in the murder of millions of people.

we’re told jesus perfectly reflects his fathers qualities.

why in the new testament does jesus show no hint of anger and jealousy and wanting to kill people?

Onager

The early Christian martyrs were not only believers of a faith that they would die for. They were witnesses. The apostles were witnesses of Jesus's resurrection and COULD not deny what they knew to be true. That is quite different from someone who has faith in their faith. Although both were martyrs, there's a major difference when you are a witness and know that it is false.

Yasir ibn Amir al-ʿAnsī (Arabic: ياسر بن عامر العنسي‎) (sixth/seventh century C.E.) was an early companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. He is the second martyr in Islam, with the first being his wife, Sumayyah.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasir_ibn_Amir#Death_and_legacy

Here's another quote from that page:

But Yasir and his wife had no one to defend them; they bore no arms, and they were the most defenseless of all the martyrs of Islam. By sacrificing their lives, they highlighted the truth of Islam, and they built strength into its structure.

Do you see that your evidence of the truth of Christianity is exactly the same type of evidence used to prove the truth of other religions? Obviously, this is cannot be evidence of either, or any, religion being true.

12

The problem with movies this last decade or so

by LoveUniHateExams in

actually, i think i've discovered two issues.. the first is that there are too many soft reboots, remakes and re-imaginings.

don't get me wrong, hollywood has always done remakes and some remakes work very well.

the fly (1986) and the thing (1982) are actually remakes/re-imaginings of the original 50s films.

Onager

I really enjoyed The Ballad of Buster Skruggs too. Not only was it proper story telling, but it was a whole bunch of top notch stories!