Kent, Common Objectives & William Barclay

by hillary_step 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Hello,

  I was always impressed with the way that William Barclay could encapsulate large and very complex issues into, not just a simple form ( are you listening Duns! ) but with a sincere purity attached. I was honored to meet him when I was very young man in my University years and though a convinced atheist at the time who actually shoved Socialist newspapers at people in my local High Street, I could not ignore the genuine tranquillity that accompanied this wonderful personality. He certainly lived the words he taught.

  He wrote on the issue of loving ones enemies and the use of ‘agape’ in the NT :

  The Christian love goes out to our enemies (Luke 6:27; cp Matt 5:44). We have seen that Christian love means unconquerable benevolence and invincible good-will. No matter what any man does to him, the Christian will never cease to seek that mans highest good. No matter how he is insulted, injured, wronged and slandered, the Christian will never cease to hate and will never let bitterness into his heart. When Lincoln was accused of treating his opponents with too much courtesy and kindness, and when it was pointed out to him that his whole duty was to destroy them, he answered: ‘Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?’. The Christian’s only method of destroying his enemies is to love them into being his friends.’

  Though many on this Board are no longer Christians, it seems to me that the value of at least attempting to embody the above ethic into whatever belief system that we may have adopted, can only improve the quality of our lives.

  Kent made some very valid points last week regarding our common goals and how sad it seemed to him ( and I hope that I have caught the spirit of your posts correctly Kent ) that so much energy on this Board is spent in bickering and ‘word wars’ which only serve to enflame our already angry wounds and provide the opposition with needed ammunition in dismissing XJW life as purposeless territory where much ‘gnashing of teeth’ can be heard.

  I have seen threads that truly stimulate intellectual activity and growth of heart on this board pass by with two or three comments while the more combative threads that often expand rapidly as a result of mischief or misunderstanding, can carry on for days and leave the participents unhappy and disjointed.

  So, I guess my question is, is it possible to love our enemies into being our friends? If so how do we accomplish this with regard to our issues with the WTS?

  HS
• 

  gsark

  Well, all I can say is that there are many of us here who are in recovery, and some of us still in great pain from our WT experiences.

  Yes it would be better to 'reach out' rather than 'lash out' but I think for some people they are too much in pain right now. I've helped rescue dogs from the road after being run over, they will bite you if you are not careful, because they are in so much pain and so frightened. Some of what I see on this board reminds me of those wounded animals.

  I've been thinking, maybe the ones here with a calm, quiet, intellectual approach are further along in the healing process than those who seem to be 'lashing' all the time. Who is anyone to say 'hurry up and heal faster'? Apparently some of these ones have found other injured souls just like themselves, and if they think they are helping each other when they 'rant and rave' together, so be it.

  But 'path of healing' or no, it doesn't take much to see who is there to lend a helping 'hand' (or post) and who is not. I can say this, healing comes faster when helping others and in this I speak from personal experience. Enemies can become a friend this way -warning!!!

  Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
• 

  Kent

  Hi hillary_step

  
  

  Kent made some very valid points last week regarding our common goals and how sad it seemed to him ( and I hope that I have caught the spirit of your posts correctly Kent ) that so much energy on this Board is spent in bickering and ‘word wars’ which only serve to enflame our already angry wounds and provide the opposition with needed ammunition in dismissing XJW life as purposeless territory where much ‘gnashing of teeth’ can be heard.

  Yes, you did. These 'word wars' are just stupid, and the only ones that have anything to gain from them is the Watchtower. They can point to this board, saying: Just look at them! A bunch of unsiviliced children!

  As the Watchtower love to say, this is a 'war', and in any war it's utter stupidity and deadly dangerous to feed the enemy with amunition. And that's exactly what we do here. By engaging in threads constructed for the sole purpose of making trouble, with no content other than "proving who is the asshole" - and thereby quite often succeeding in proving a hell of a lot of people being "loosers". We should simply see through such attempts, and refuse to jump on the wagon.

  So, I guess my question is, is it possible to love our enemies into being our friends? If so how do we accomplish this with regard to our issues with the WTS?

  I believe it is, but the 100 dollar question is HOW. Many people seems to believe they have THE answer, but fact is: Nobody have.

  People are different. Some people needs to make things cosy, to be real warm and kind. That's their style - and that might work fine with some people. Other people might need a real hard kick in the ass to start thinking!

  We're all different, folks. The net is filled with webpages intended to "save" JWs into yet another "truth". They are trying to answer the "all important question" for JWs: Where do we go to? Personally I don't see it as my job to tell anyone where to go. If I can, some way or the other, make people start thinking - that's a start. If they are angry with me, and just wants to prove me an arrogant liar, cool! Many has done that, and failed. That's why it's all important that I don't publish any false information on The Watchtower Observer.

  WHY people start thinking is not important. The main thing is THAT THEY DO!

  But I don't think anyone but the Watchtower has anything to gain by scaring people off by a wild bunch of rabid dogs - eating each others throats.

  Yakki Da

  Kent

  "The only difference between a fool and the JW legal department is that a fool might be sympathetic ."

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  Tina

  Mornin kent,
  I agree. We should be aware that the WT can point to such nonsense and use it to make a blanket statement about those who've had the sense and courage to leave.
  I've said this before and will again as I feel it needs repeating.
  After looking thru various threads and some topics. One can see they are designed SOLELY to start arguements or fuel them. This is done by a few who use emotional topics,quips questions to continue the arguing. It's really open and easy to see who is doing this.
  The solution would be to NOT engage with them. This is what they want. They power trip and use this to control you! Don't let them! As tempting as it is to want to show up their lies,slander and weaseling,dont give in. Reasonableness,rational thinking.logic will not work. It's evident from the threads it wont work. The motivation/agenda is clear-disruption,hate,diverting one from the important issues,and their own sick needs. Just my dos centavos FWIW.T
• 

  jst2laws

  Hello HS,
  Quote:
  "I have seen threads that truly stimulate intellectual activity and growth of heart on this board pass by with two or three comments while the more combative threads that often expand rapidly as a result of mischief or misunderstanding, can carry on for days and leave the participents unhappy and disjointed."

  Thanks for saying this so well. I hope this thread gets a lot of attention.
  Jst2laws
• 

  Francois

  This same concept "The Christian’s only method of destroying his enemies is to love them into being his friends," has a much wider application.

  Doesn't it apply to ALL people everywhere? When we are told that we will look for the evil one but he will not be found, why does the WTS insist that the evil one met with destruction? Is it not possible that the love of god has changed the evil to good?

  And you charge that many on this site have "ceased being Christians." Are you sure you want to make that statement? And what does it mean to be a christian? To profess Jesus as your Lord and Savior? There are millions of people who do so on Sunday and then go out for the next six days and prove by each and every action and word that they are not.

  Then there are others who live lives of quiet dignity, who love their neighbors, who help other with their last penny, who display their love for god in each word and deed. And much, much more. But they call their god Allah, or Vishnu. Gandhi did this. Are you willing to assign a Gandhi to eternal death because even though he lived a life that was a reflection of the life lived by Jesus, he professed not the NAME of Jesus?

  Chrisitanity has come to mean world-wide bloodshed, slavery, hypocrisy, business without ethics, religion without morals - even though it professes the NAME of Jesus.

  Being Christian means a lot more than your apparently narrow definition.

  Think about it.

  Francois

  NOTE TO GOVERNING BODY: You've been challenged to a debate, boys. Dont you have ANY balls?
• 

  outnfree

  Hi, all!

  I just wanted to say that I read Kent's other posts and am in agreement. There are many important issues at stake here, and we ex-JW's are in a unique position in being able to understand and expound upon those issues so that the public as well as the doubters who lurk get a good grasp on WHY the WTS's policies and practices are dangerous and deceitful.

  I also agree with Tina that the best way to stop these flame threads occuring is refusal to participate therein. (I won't even read anything posted by MadApostate anymore -- seems my initial gut feeling about him was correct, after all, though I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.)

  Hilary_Step,
  Sometimes in my case, and I wonder, jst2laws, if this isn't the case for others as well, I feel that my poor brain has been so underused during my years of JWdom, that I cannot formulate a coherent comment or argument on some of the more intellectual threads. I can recognize their value, understand points of argument, but find it difficult to put myself in league with some of the mental giants (to me) who are on this board.

  Francoise,
  you seem to be making many references to Gandhi lately. An admirable man. Would you share the title of the work you are or have lately read about him? All I know is what I learned from that movie Ben Gxxx???? starred in years ago. Your point that one can be Christ-like without being "Christian" is well-taken.

  and dear gsark,
  the "path of healing" is indeed varied and must be so. We are NOT all "cookie cutter ex-dubs" even though the Society tried to make us "Stepford Publishers!" Basic personality traits WILL out, and some are more kindly, others more brash, but ALL are HURTING
  I need to rant and rave every once in a while, but I am also trying to do my part individually, publicly and behind the scenes, to push the WTBTS to change its dangerous policies and to encourage right-hearted ones to leave behind the deceit and wickedness.

  To my mind, these are the paramount issues. And I DO believe that the longer one is out, the easier it is to focus on the long-term, really important, altruistic issues. But in the short-term, venting one's rage is personally satisfying and a necessary stage in the grief process. Because aren't we all mourning our lost innocence and credulity in believing that the WTS really DID have all the answers and the sure way to God, salvation and paradise?

  outnfree
• 

  waiting

  There is another way to answer posts which are seemingly designed to hurt, antagonize, belittle, etc.........

  I saw Hawk do it - great sidestep. I can't actually quote it, but it stopped the argument immediately.

  1. Hawk had posted something - not really deep, but a good point as to keeping a thread alive.

  2. FredHall answered really ignorantly and with his usual vileness.

  3. Hawk then responded to him as if he knew who he *actually* was - and showed empathy for him, and his situation.

  4. FredHall refused to anwer back.

  5. The thread continued in tact and did not warp into a war of insults.

  It was an amazing display of simply handling a situation without a confrontation. Worthy of imitation imho.

  waiting
• 

  hillary_step

  Francoise,

  Thank you for your comments.

  You said:

  And you charge that many on this site have "ceased being Christians." Are you sure you want to make that statement? And what does it mean to be a christian? To profess Jesus as your Lord and Savior? There are millions of people who do so on Sunday and then go out for the next six days and prove by each and every action and word that they are not.

  And later :

  Being Christian means a lot more than your apparently narrow definition.

  The spirit of my post seems to have been understood by others Francoise. At the basis of my post is Barclay's definition of Christian love, in my opinion an admirable ethic to live by, whatever your belief system. In saying this I merely acknowledged that many who participate on this board would not describe themselves as Christian by any definition. That many who carry the name of Christ upon themselves and then choose not to reflect this ideal of Christian love in their life-style is a matter between themselves and Christ and is well ouside the scope of the issue that I am focusing on. Respectfully, it does the post nor its intent any justice to widen it beyond its focus. I asked a couple of questions that related to the issue I will paste them again:

  So, I guess my question is, is it possible to love our enemies into being our friends? If so how do we accomplish this with regard to our issues with the WTS?

  Once again, many thanks for your comments -- HS
• 

  trevor

  hillary_step

  I agree with your sentiments. The way to get any real response is to start a war – but then – that has been true throughout the history of humanity.

  I used to post sensible thoughtful threads some months ago but I now realise that they are neither wanted nor appreciated. I have not done the drama queen thing of flaunting in and out of the board. I stay around and enjoy the sensible posts, take the Mickey out of the idiots and generally have fun. I guess that is how I treat life in general now.

  Looking for the answers in a deep and meaningful way is a fool errand. What most people want is attention and they will stop at nothing to get it. Some people take this natural tendency to extremes and there are medical words that describe them but the best word is ‘nutter.’

  The attention seekers on this board stand out like sore backsides. I’ll be dammed if I’ll scratch their itch.

  Life is too short. Having a good laugh is probably the holygrail.