Thanks all, for the cheerleading. Narkissos, I understand completely. Will Power, my fellow-Christian friend, thanks.
Questions for Jgnat
by Shining One 151 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tetrapod.sapien
rex,
i await your answers.
TS
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Shining One
Q. I wonder why you claim to be Christian when you consistently ignore scripture and context?
A. I am a follower of Christ. Not a follower of Bible. There's a difference.
AQ How can you say you ‘follow’ Christ when the Bible tells the story of Christ?
Q. Are you saying that trying to respect and obey scriptural commands is somehow incorrect for Christians?
A. Trying to defend the bible as infallible as God is infallible is doomed to failure. You are forced to believe that the world is a flat disk supported on pillars. Sheol below, and a dotted tent above, Heaven. This is what the Isrealite ancestors believed, and this is what the OT references to Sheol and Heaven are based on.
QA Not at all, you are confusing primitive literal definitions with literal scripture. You are also mistaking ‘infallibility’ with ‘inerrancy’. Have you read any mainstream commentaries on the verses in question or do you rely totally on the ‘Jesus Seminar’ naturalists and Alan F style unbelievers for ‘honest’ conclusions?
Q. What do you use as the standard to justify ignoring some scripture and embracing others?
A. Two scriptures I use as my touchstone; Love God, love others as myself. And second, if it bears good fruit, we got it right.
QA So, you ignore all relevant scripture that you disagree with personally? What then is the basis for your own belief? If you don't believe that it teaches the truth of Almighty God, then how can you claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ? What is ‘good fruit’, letting unbelievers run roughshod over the beliefs of those who are at their most vulnerable?
Q. The 'inconsistencies' that you claim exist are typically reconciled.
A. Yes, but at what cost? If I took all scripture literally, I should be wearing a headpiece as I speak to you. I am not.
QA That my dear is a straw man that makes the scarecrow look like a ‘piker’. You are again confusing cultism with REAL CHRISTIANITY.
A. Modern apologetics "explain away" this requirement, but by doing so, they lose their integrity. If the bible is infallible, then there should not be anything to "explain away".
QA No one is talking about taking ‘all scripture literally’ and again, infallibility and ‘inerrancy’ are two separate issues.
Q. Christians do not have to explain nor account for all alleged 'inconsistencies' to gain the upper hand in apologetics.
A. True, if they are defending their faith. If, on the other hand, they are trying to defend the bible as infallible, they must certainly explain every inconsistency. Without relying on modern work-arounds. This is because athiests also have available to them full texts of the bible and rightfully so can call us to account.
QA We don’t have to account for their laziness in not being schooled on legitimate methods used for analyzing scripture. As far as explaining every nuance, we are dealing with translations of many types, not with the original manuscripts. ‘Inerrancy’ is a moot point, since we do not have the originals!
Q. 'Twisted doctrine' is the result of interpreting scripture out of context. Perhaps you can explain to us the basis you use to judge another Christian's obedience to scripture and why they should not do so?
A. I gave three examples. Four including the headpiece. The JW abstension from blood is another. The JW's insistence that God's heroes weren't such bad guys after all, by explaining away their indescretions. Such as David's murder of Bathsheba's first husband.
QA You are using the straw man again. Jwism is not REAL CHRISTIANITY.
Q. Again, if you do not hold scripture to be factual,
A. Scripture is factual now? Scripture to back that up, please.
QA ‘Factual’ is a general assessment. Your question is facetious.
Q. ....on what basis do you claim to be Christian?
A. I .....am.....a.......follower......of......Christ. I am reasonably certain that Jesus' instruction got to us fairly intact. I am confident in following his example, and take the cross if necessary.
QA You say you will ‘take the cross’, yet you do not believe the scripture that describes and defines the cross in the first place!
Q. * I've seen abusers use the bible to force their victims to "forgive" them and remain in an abusive situation. How can a Christian accomplish this without being a cultist, like you and I came out of? Surely you are not comparing orthodox Christianity with Jw-ism, are you?
A. I was never a JW. The examples of which I am speaking were in an evangelical church. I am saying that ANYBODY can use the bible as an offensive weapon, if they are diabolical enough.
QA If the persons were ‘in an evangelical church’, then don’t generalize and lump all evangelicals together.
A. I saw it. It was shameful. I know in my heart of hearts it was wrong. Now, I share my faith in all kinds of situations. But I do it when the person is relaxed and in possession of all their faculties. If a person is not in a frame of mind to write a will, why would we coerce a deathbed conversion from them?
QA Then you need to define what you mean, naturally a person who cannot understand what is going on is not ready to decide the matters of faith. But again, you assume some dying soul no longer has a chance to make a decision for Christ? Who made you God? That is so arrogant and it is not at all loving or compassionate! You would condemn them to a hell of their own making instead of giving them a chance for heaven?
Q. We are told to not seek to be a teacher of scripture unless we are called to do so. Remember that there is a heavier responsibility and weightier judgment for those who teach error or 'stumble others'.
A. Are you suggesting I 'stumble others' with my opinion? In my opinion, your arrogant presentation of "Christianity" does more harm.
QA Read the book, my dear. Yes, you are absolutely ‘stumbling others’ right into the pit of hell. I back up my actions with scripture and it is in context. It is not being ashamed of the gospel as you evidently are.
A. BTW, I consider my gift to be "encourager". At least one poster here has thanked me for turning her to God and away from disillusionment.
QA Keep encouraging then in your own way but ask yourself these questions: Have you turned this person to ‘a god’ or to God? Do you deny scripture in order to make the Bible more palatable, in other words, are you ‘apologizing for God’ and claiming He is not in providential control of all things? What is your basis for belief if certain portions of God‘s word are not factual?
Rex -
AllAlongTheWatchtower
"...You will know them by their fruits..." I am a relative newcomer here, yet I feel the need to respond to this thread. A short comparison and contrast:
Jgnat: One of the most kind and thoughtful posters I have seen on this board, who gives helpful advice, does not 'preach' or attempt to shove her belief system down other people's throats while doing so, she was the first person to welcome me to this board, and consistantly welcomes all newbies and encourages them to feel ok to post more.
ShiningOne: Argumentative and derisive of others' beliefs, known to hide under alternative names (Rex), frequently belittles other posters and names them in thread titles to challenge them to arguments (example: AlanF), I have never seen this user welcome a newbie or encourage others in any way.
I'm an atheist, but even I can see who is living up to the christian ideal.
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Shining One
Hi Tetrapodal,
You are amusing to yourself, aren't you?
>i have some questions for you rex:
what church do you belong to?
The church of Jesus Christ, He is my Lord and savior.
>do you think that if i died tomorrow, i would go to hell?
It doesn't matter what I think. A more pertinent question would be this: do you think you would go to hell if you died tomorrow?
>do you think that it is okay to lie if it means defending the glory of christ?
Don't play games with logical traps and 'catch 22' questions. You are trying to define 'lying' as 'apologetics' and I will not fall for it!
>do you dig catholics?
I can take some or leave some.
>how do you explain body hair?
how do you explain DNA as it relates to genomes?
>did jesus tell you to come here to JWD and try to help?
I try to be obedient to the will of God in my life. It may be here and it may not be, depending on how much I 'abide on the vine'. See John 15 and maybe you will gain some insight.
>do you pray for me?
Specifically you? I am not sure but I will do so now. I have prayed for those who say they do not believe in God.
>and don't lie. jesus is watching you rex. but i am sure he wants you to answer the questions, i can feel it in my heart.
God is not one to be mocked. You do so at your own peril.....
REx -
lawrence
Shining One-
You just amaze me with your devil-duped Bible Thumping Kill Em with Scriptures hostility. Go take a bath, comb your hair, brush your teeth, sleep sweet dreams - manana, and you'll be a child of God - peaceful, mild, joyous, kind, open to agreement, full of love. Night ! Night!
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Shining One
None of the 'cheerleaders' answered the first question posed to Jgnat. Here it is again:
"Are you saying that respect for and obedience to scriptural commands is somehow incorrect for Christians?"
Let me break that down a little.
If you claim to be a Christian and yet assert that the Bible is unreliable, then are you really a Christian? Do you share your faith, i.e., that the only way to salvation is through the Jesus Christ described in the Bible?
Do you contend that something more than the blood of Jesus, spilled on the cross, is necessary for salvation? In other words, do you have to observe man-made traditions that have been established by various religions or do you accept the standard that we are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus?
If you do not observe and try to obey, Matthew 28.18-20 and Acts 1.8, how can you honestly say that you are a 'Christian'?
There is no 'inquistion' here. There is a call for honesty, instead making excuses as to why you find the glorious gospel to be shameful! You refuse to be 'salt and light' and let the world shape you instead of letting Christ transform your mind and quicken your spirit. Some of you are sitting around self-righteously fooling yourselves that compromise in order to 'not be offensive' is somehow noble and correct. You are 'not offending' people to their own peril. In Revelation that is called 'lukewarm' and it is an offense to the cross of Christ!
Rex -
stillajwexelder
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition - our chief weapon is suprise
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Daunt
"Q. I wonder why you claim to be Christian when you consistently ignore scripture and context? A. I am a follower of Christ. Not a follower of Bible. There's a difference. AQ How can you say you ‘follow’ Christ when the Bible tells the story of Christ?
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Daunt
"Q. I wonder why you claim to be Christian when you consistently ignore scripture and context? A. I am a follower of Christ. Not a follower of Bible. There's a difference. AQ How can you say you ‘follow’ Christ when the Bible tells the story of Christ?" When I read this my head just started hurting and I couldn't read anymore. You do not have to ascribe to a whole of something just because you agree with a part. That's way too black and white.