Another "New Light" or changing their damned story again about reserection

by crinklestein 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  crinklestein

  Can anyone confirm if their doctrin of the reserection has been changed? A witness idiot I know has been trying to preach to me online trying to convert me. He has stability issues himself with flip flopping back and forth between the "world" and the "truth".

  We all know that they used to say that when you die your slate is clean and your sin is forgiven because the wages of sin is death. And if you died now you'd be resserected in the New System. Now he made some comment that even if you die now you may NOT be resserected in the New System if you didn't do enough works. Has there been a change?

  It's been funny going at him with logic while he spouts his Witness insanity. I listed scriptures detailing that salvation is a free gift from God and that all you need to do is profess your faith in Jesus and accept him into your heart. Then he, in the same sentence, says that the gift is free indeed but we need to do works to earn it. That makes no sense at all. THEN he says that no amount of works will ever be enough to earn one's salvation but goes on and on about how he has to do more works. It is the funniest shit!

  It's free but you have to earn it with lots of works.

  And no specific amount of works can be enough to earn it because it's given freely.

  Insanity. But does anyone have any clues about this reserection thing?
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  misspeaches

  I don't think there has been any changes on that part of the doctrine.

  I would say that the poor man has gotten himself confused. No wonder when they live in their insular little world and most of them have little education. They lack the ability to reason normally.

  Perhaps he has gotten confused with their policy on 'faith without works is dead'. Very commonly used to guilt dubbies into going to more meetings and more recruitment drives. (ie witnessing)
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  jgnat

  I'm no expert. So anyone active at the hall, correct me. My hubby carries around a lot of "old light".The way I figure it,

  1. A JW must stay active in service, because if he is not on the day of Armageddon, his aXX is graXX.
  2. A JW who is inactive is not a real JW, so on the day of Armageddon, his aXX is graXX.
  3. A JW who dies before Armageddon, regardless of status, is secure. They get the second shot.
  4. "Worldly" people who die before Armageddon are secure. They get the second shot.

  However, he might be right because I have seen it hinted in literature that Jehovah choses who to resurrect at his leisure. Just because you are ELIGIBLE doesn't mean Jehovah WILL. Some thinking JW's have considered the consequences of population and earth capacity, eternal life and eternal fertility, and have concluded that only a small percentage of earth's former population will be reconstituted.

  I am unclear, however, on the status of:

  5. "Worldly" people and their children who die AT Armageddon.
  6. Children of JW's, unbaptized, who die AT Armageddon.

  And, if the change in doctrine regarding the period of Judgement, that is, we are NOT living in a period of Judgement right now, affects the whole "who gets resurrection" thingy (I believe the generation change modified this doctrine as well).
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  skyman

  No change He or she is just an idot that does not know what to believe.
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  Aude_Sapere

  It would almost seem plausible that they would change that 'light' when considering the change in 'generation'.
  
  As the generation that saw 1914 starts dying after wasting decades working as slaves for the publishing company, others probably start thinking "hmmmmm. Maybe shouldn't have spent so much effort on that lost cause. Those people died before Armageddon and automatically gain access to the New System."
  
  If Armageddon is pushed ahead into the future and people begin to realize that they, too, may actually die before the promised new earth arrives, they may slow down in the preaching work and stop putting kingdom interests first and actually consider having a semblance of normal life.
  
  Then what will happen to the organization???
  
  They almost have to change that doctrine about guaranteed resurrection.
  
  -Aude.
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  nowisee

  oh man. this thread brings up such old stuff for me.

  this was the issue that got my father crazed in the 60's when the wt came out with a series of articles changing their viewpoint. he was a very logical thinker and tried to get some straight answers. when they could not possibly be given because the "new light" was riddled with inconsistencies, they just threatened to disfellowship him. thus the pathway away from jws was paved for my family.
• 

  MidwichCuckoo

  "Worldly" people who die before Armageddon are secure.; They get the second shot

  I always believed this to be the case - therefore the preaching wosk of 100 years ago was a waste of time, as everyone from that period now shares the same status.

  Aude_Sapere - good point, I agree. If the 'generation' beomes 'indefinite', then the above will apply. But the WTBTS are/will be falling back on the 'no one knows the day or hour' - that should keep the R&F on their toes.

  The 'new thinking' on the Generation (quote below) means nothing to me. I cannot make any sense of it. Is it just me?12 Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways. (WT Nov 1st 1995)
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  Ingenuous

  Reasoning from the Scriptures: "Resurrection", p.339-340

  Who will be included in the earthly resurrection? "Both those who lived in harmony with God's righteous ways and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected. The Bible does not answer all our questions as to whether certain specific individuals who have died will be resurrected. Butwe can be confident that God, who knows all the facts, will act impartially, with justice tempered by mercy that does not ignore his righteous standards." [Those who committed "unforgivable sins" would have their "memory... blotted out in Gehenna."]

  The Reasoning book is vague about who will be destroyed @ Armageddon, citing a list of scriptures without commentary. It does have this to say in answer to the question "What will happen to young children at Armageddon?" [p. 47-48]

  The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges. However, the Bible does show that God views the young children of true Christians as "holy." (1 Cor. 7:14) It also reveals that in times past when God destroyed the wicked he likewise destroyed their little ones. (Num. 16:27, 32; Eze. 9:6) God does not want anyone to be destroyed, so he is having a warning sounded now to benefit both parents and children. Would it not be wise for parents to pursue a course that would result in their children being looked on with favor by God both now and at Armageddon?"

  So, according to the Org, God will resurrect ignorant adults who do bad things, but not ignorant children who didn't get a chance to learn right from wrong. Also, given that we can't say any particular individual will be resurrected, shouldn't we stop handing out the Dead Loved Ones tract since we're inspiring false hope in people in an effort to get them to study with us?

  MidwichCuckoo:

  The 'new thinking' on the Generation (quote below) means nothing to me. I cannot make any sense of it. Is it just me? 12 Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways. (WT Nov 1st 1995)

  To me, this means any group of people "who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways" qualifies as "this generation." IOW, as long as there is a group of people on earth who see the things described in the relevant portions of Matthew 24 and don't become JWs, they can be called "this generation." There is no longer a time range imposed on the lifespan of a "generation." We could be sitting here in 2100 AD and, as long as someone could point to developments that resemble Matthew 24, those who see it and don't convert can be called "this generation." It's a vague and malleable definition. And with the creation of the "Nethinim" class, "this system" really could go on that long, since there's no longer an expectation that the "anointed" will still be on earth during the "great tribulation" and the "Nethinim" are expected to care for the spiritual needs of the R&F after the "anointed" have left the earth.
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  MidwichCuckoo

  
  Ingenuous - exactly. I see what the quote apparently means, but it still doesn't make sense. It actually is meaningless as there will ALWAYS be people as described there. Prior to this, the 1914 doctrine was straightforward and easily understood.

  12 Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways. (WT Nov 1st 1995)

  I also find the word 'apparently' a very strange insertion - when this generation 'idea' is later changed, the WTBTS will be able to say that it was only 'apparent' in 1995 before New Light was revealed.
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  carla

  Crinkle,

  My husband says just about the same thing. Are you sure your not talking to him? I asked him where was his assurance? There is none. You mean you don't know if you will make it? Today, I think I will, but who knows about the next day.

  He has no concept of grace. No concept of free. He says you must work to show faith. And uses the James script, 'faith without works is dead'. Your conversation sounds exactly like many we have had. Exactly! Never mind ANY of the other scripts that show faith. I have even circled the word faith in my NT thinking if he could see it in a more visual way something might click. However, now so many things are circled, squared, underlined and notes, he doesn't approve I think.

  don't hurt your head against that wall,

  carla