Cross or a Stake - which was it?

by KAYTEE 120 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  TheListener

  I put this in another thread but thought it should go here as well. This is an article I stumbled upon by accident while cruising the CDRom.

  *** w51 3/15 p. 190 Prometheus Represented as Tied to a Stake ***

  Prometheus

  Represented as Tied to a Stake

  The Watchtower Society, publishers of the "New World Translation", received a letter questioning a statement in the appendix that the Greek hero Prometheus was represented as tied to a stake. The Society’s answer is here published.

  December 1, 1950

  Dear Sir:

  Answering yours of November 14 which poses a challenge that the popular Greek hero Prometheus "was represented as tied to a stake or ‘stauros’".

  Just as you have heard, the Americana Encyclopedia in its article on "Prometheus Bound", the tragedy by the Greek poet Aeschylus, also represents Prometheus clamped to a rock in the Caucasus by forging. However, we should like to refer you to the book The History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, by Dr. Paul Carus, and published in Chicago by The Open Court Publishing Co. in 1900. On page 210 it gives the illustration of a man tied to a stake, under which illustration it says: "Prometheus tied by Zeus to the stake (or cross) and exposed to the Eagle: Rescue by Hercules (A vase found at Chiusi, now in Berlin. Baumeister, D.d.cl.A., p. 1410)." On this page Dr. Carus says: "In spite of the strong admixture of foreign mythology, Hercules has become the national hero of Greece, and the Greek idea of salvation has found in him the most typical expression, which has been most beautifully worked out by Aeschylus in a grand tragedy which represents Prometheus (the forethinker) as struggling and suffering mankind, tied to the pole of misery by Zeus as a punishment for the sin of having brought the bliss of light and fire down to the earth. But at last the divine saviour, Hercules, arrives, and, killing the eagle that lacerates the liver of the bold hero, sets him free. Prometheus and Hercules are combined into one person in the Christian Saviour, Jesus Christ. The similarity of the story of Golgotha with the myth of Prometheus is not purely accidental. For observe that in some of the older pictures, as, for instance, in the vase of [page 211] Chiusi (see illustration on page 210), Prometheus is not chained to a rock but tied to a pole, that is, to a sta?? ? ? or cross, and Greek authors frequently use expressions such as the verb a ?as????p ? ?es?a? (Aeschylus) and a ?asta??? ? s?a? (Lucian) which mean ‘to be crucified.’"

  On pages 217, 218 Dr. Carus says: "Plato, who, perhaps under the impression of Aeschylus’s conception of the tragic fate of Prometheus, says of the perfect man who would rather be than appear just: ‘They will tell you that the just man who is thought unjust will be scourged, racked, bound; will have his eyes burnt out; and, at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be hung up at the pale.’ The strangest thing about this passage is that the word

  a ?as???d??e?? ? seta?, which means ‘he will be hung up at the stake’, or ‘fixed on a pale’, is an older synonym of the New Testament term sta?? ? e??, commonly translated ‘to crucify.’"

  The above agrees with the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures in its Appendix, page 769, in saying that the instrument upon which Jesus was nailed was a stake without a crossbeam, and not the religiously represented "cross"; and that the Greek word used for that instrument in ancient time meant a "stake" and not the conventional religious cross.

  Sincerely yours,

  WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY
• 

  Narkissos

  Just to provide the Greek transliterations in TheListener's post:

  Just as you have heard, the Americana ;Encyclopedia in its article on "Prometheus Bound", the tragedy by the Greek poet Aeschylus, also represents Prometheus clamped to a rock in the Caucasus by forging. However, we should like to refer you to the book The ;History ;of ;the ;Devil ;and ;the ;Idea ;of ;Evil ;from ;the ;Earliest ;Times ;to ;the ;Present ;Day, by Dr. Paul Carus, and published in Chicago by The Open Court Publishing Co. in 1900. On page 210 it gives the illustration of a man tied to a stake, under which illustration it says: "Prometheus tied by Zeus to the stake (or cross) and exposed to the Eagle: Rescue by Hercules (A vase found at Chiusi, now in Berlin. Baumeister, D.d.cl.A., p. 1410)." On this page Dr. Carus says: "In spite of the strong admixture of foreign mythology, Hercules has become the national hero of Greece, and the Greek idea of salvation has found in him the most typical expression, which has been most beautifully worked out by Aeschylus in a grand tragedy which represents Prometheus (the forethinker) as struggling and suffering mankind, tied to the pole of misery by Zeus as a punishment for the sin of having brought the bliss of light and fire down to the earth. But at last the divine saviour, Hercules, arrives, and, killing the eagle that lacerates the liver of the bold hero, sets him free. Prometheus and Hercules are combined into one person in the Christian Saviour, Jesus Christ. The similarity of the story of Golgotha with the myth of Prometheus is not purely accidental. For observe that in some of the older pictures, as, for instance, in the vase of [page 211] Chiusi (see illustration on page 210), Prometheus is not chained to a rock but tied to a pole, that is, to a stauros or cross, and Greek authors frequently use expressions such as the verb anaskolopizesthai (Aeschylus) and anastaurousthai (Lucian) which mean ‘to be crucified.’"

  On pages 217, 218 Dr. Carus says: "Plato, who, perhaps under the impression of Aeschylus’s conception of the tragic fate of Prometheus, says of the perfect man who would rather be than appear just: ‘They will tell you that the just man who is thought unjust will be scourged, racked, bound; will have his eyes burnt out; and, at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be hung up at the pale.’ The strangest thing about this passage is that the word anaskinduleuthèsetai,

  which means ‘he will be hung up at the stake’, or ‘fixed on a pale’, is an older synonym of the New Testament term stauroein , commonly translated ‘to crucify.’"

  Actually anask(h)induleuô (the verb used by Plato in Republic, 362a) rather means "to impale," in the literal sense (having a stake driven through the body) and not in the WT sense (being tied or nailed to a stake) -- although it might be taken more loosely. Of course Plato would not refer to the Roman common mode of execution. The other way around, though, from a Roman perspective, the idea of a crucified hero makes perfect sense.
• 

  scholar

  Leolaia, Alan F(God) Narkissos

  Nothing amuses me more than to read the utter nonsense, the infantile intellectual attempts to refute what celebrated WT scholars have revealed to the scholarly community and the world through the utterly brilliant NWT that our most dear and precious Lord Jesus humbly died on a stake and not a pagan cross.

  The puerile attempts to invalidate our arguments fail, the use of the classical sources are correct, the lexical meanings of xulon and stauros are correct, the eyewitness testimony is correct, the historiograpyt associated with the pre, NT and pre-NT periods in relation to the devolopments of the cross is correct.

  The FDS in its most recent exposition of the subject in the publication, What Does The Bible Really Teach clearly demonstrates that Jesus died on a stake, pure and simple..

  scholar JW
• 

  Hellrider

  Here we go again, with the "celebrated WT scholars". God, this guy can`t be for real, he`s got to be a troll.

  Well, instead of just showing up, boasting about the celebrated WT scholars and their superior interpretation, perhaps you could adress some of the arguments provided by the "apostates" here?
• 

  jgnat

  A fine example of form without substance, scholar. You even correctly spelt amuses, utter nonsense, infantile, celebrated, brilliant, puerile, and invalidate. Their meaning, however, may have been wasted. As you continue with your education, as I dearly hope you will, please learn the difference between source material and opinion.

  Eyewitness accounts ? Oh my. Did they have video cams in the first century?

  I would dearly like to see how a book can demonstrate the appropriate crucifixion method. I’d think one would also need a mallet, patibulum,a stauros, and some nails. Or perhaps the book could double as a mallet.
  Now, back to your thesaurus and look up the meaning of the word hyperbole.
• 

  AlanF

  LOL at scholar pretendus! Both he and Watchtower writers demonstrably must resort to gross misrepresentation of source references to prove their claims. Anyone who does this is not only a liar, but knows that their basic claim is false -- otherwise they wouldn't know what to misrepresent. Both the Society and scholar pretendus have sometimes claimed that some reference says exactly the opposite of what it really says.

  AlanF
• 

  scholar

  Alan F

  Celebrated WT scholars do not and have not misrepresented source references either currently or previously, it is just not the policy. I know that for many years that this is your agenda that our writers misuse other references and that this first led you in to apostasy and falling away from the faith which has led you into spiritual and mental darkness. Perhaps if you feel so strongly about the matter you should do a PHD thesis on the subject which may serve some benefit to the community or you write to Bethel and make a complaint.

  The simple fact is that our writings are simple, written for the world-wide community and these ideas articulate the basic facts of the matter whatever the case and appeal to the heart and mind of the reader. Such a philosophical and methodological approach to research and writing makes the claims of apostates and critics foolish and ignorant because what is written is truth, plain and simple for all races, cultures greatly benefiting. The glory of this international organization goes to its source, Jehovah God.

  scholar JW
• 

  Daunt

  scholar Your gross assumptions are just more evidence to the people that see you write in this forum that you are heavily biased and plainly full of crap. I have yet to see you post anything with any substance rather than outlandish claims that you neither back up nor express in a dignified manner. This is much of the same things that proves the Watchtower's dishonesty. I have read so many times, "One famous physicists said," or "A West Europe magazine said". This bibliographical dishonesty is a testament to the watchtower’s dishonesty. And stop with the insults, it isn’t becoming of a human being, let alone a true Christian.
• 

  AlanF

  scholar pretendus wrote:

  : Celebrated WT scholars do not and have not misrepresented source references either currently or previously

  Of course they do. Leolaia, Narkissos, I and many others have documented it copiously. The fact that you don't accept the Society's reprehensible practices mean nothing more than that you're a standard JW cult member.

  I documented your own lies in another thread, where you claimed that Liddell & Scott said one thing about the meaning of stauros, and I showed that it said the opposite. Like father, like son.

  AlanF
• 

  Narkissos

  Hi Scholar,

  Sorry to be redundant, but... the charges of misrepresentation on this issue have been both specific (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/97358/1671608/post.ashx#1671608) and fully documented by Leolaia (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/92381/1.ashx). I'm afraid at this stage sweeping denial won't help. Either you address each charge individually with a counter-argument, or imo your posts won't be worth an answer.