Cross or a Stake - which was it?

by KAYTEE 120 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OldSoul


    Besides these simple facts without engaging in the historical debate there is the problem that the cross is a pagan symbol and it would be a violation of the sacred for Jesus to be associated with a pagan thing. Jesus death was sacrificial and a sacred act of atonement and it could not violated by the introduction of something unclean and detestable. You frankly are a stupid woman for suggesting such an alternative that something Holy could then become unclean. How utterly stupid and monstrous to impugn and insult the death of our Saviour that way. You should be ashamed of yourself. What you are saying is that the High Priest on the Day of Atonement could and did bring unclean things into the Holy of Holies.

    In just a few minutes of research, I found the following evidence that, according to your own statements as quoted above, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society are "utterly stupid and monstrous." You are brave to impugn them so publicly in this way. Brief excerpts follow, but you can trace the same trail yourself by using "sacred poles" as a quoted search term on any WT Library CD-ROM. There are 97 results for the term, I have posted here most of the ones from Insight On the Scriptures, a farcical parody of true scholarship if ever there was one.


    *** it-1 p. 229 Baal ***Undoubtedly each Canaanite city built its Baal sanctuary in honor of its local patron Baal. Priests were appointed to conduct the worship at these sanctuaries and the many shrines on neighboring hilltops known as high places. (Compare 2Ki 17:32.) Inside the shrines there may have been images or representations of Baal, whereas near the altars outside were to be found stone pillars (likely phallic symbols of Baal), sacred poles representing the goddess Asherah, and incense stands. (Compare 2Ch 34:4-7; see SACRED POLE.) Male and female prostitutes served at the high places, and besides ceremonial prostitution, even child sacrifice was practiced. (Compare 1Ki 14:23, 24; Ho 4:13, 14; Isa 57:5; Jer 7:31; 19:5.) Worship of Baal was also carried out right on the housetops of the people, from where sacrificial smoke to their god was frequently seen to rise.--Jer 32:29.

    *** it-1 p. 229 Baal ***What effect did Baal worship have on Israel?
    Baalism is implied early in the Bible, although apparently it had not reached the level of degradation in the days of the patriarchs that existed when the Israelites entered the land of Canaan. (Compare Ge 15:16; 1Ki 21:26.) The listing of the city of Ashteroth-karnaim, possibly named after Baal's consort Ashtoreth, gives the first suggestion of it. (Ge 14:5) Before the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, the location Baal-zephon could be seen in the wilderness. (Ex 14:2, 9) With respect to the inhabitants of Canaan, specific warnings were given to Moses on Mount Sinai to pull down their altars, shatter their sacred pillars, and cut down their sacred poles. (Ex 34:12-14) Thus all appendages of Baal worship were to be eradicated from the Promised Land.

    *** it-1 pp. 230-231 Baal ***Later (c. 905 B.C.E.) Jehu was anointed king. He avenged the murder of Jehovah's prophets by killing off Jezebel and the house of her husband Ahab. All the worshipers of Baal were then summoned to Samaria under pretense of holding "a solemn assembly for Baal." At Jehu's command all the Baal worshipers were killed. The sacred poles were burned, and the sacred pillar and house of Baal were pulled down, the house being set aside for a public privy. With this it is said that Jehu "annihilated Baal out of Israel." (2Ki 10:18-28) So, at least for the time, Baal worship was suppressed. However, it was on account of such Baalistic religion that Jehovah finally let the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel go into exile.--2Ki 17:16-18.

    *** it-1 p. 352 Bones ***Uncleanness. Under the Law given through Moses, a person was religiously unclean for seven days if he touched a corpse, a bone of a man, or a burial place. (Nu 19:16) King Josiah fought false worship by filling with human bones the places where sacred poles of pagan worship had been and burning on the altars the bones from burial places, thus making the altars defiled and unfit for use.--2Ki 23:14, 16, 19; 2Ch 34:5.

    *** it-1 p. 575 Dancing ***Dancing also had a religious significance among the people of the pagan nations. The processions of ancient Babylon and other nations were usually of a religious nature, and often processional dances were staged as part of the event. The dances in Greece usually acted out some legend connected with their gods, who were themselves depicted as dancing. Fertility dances were designed to stimulate the sexual passions of both participants and observers. The Canaanites performed circle dances around their idols and sacred poles honoring the fertility forces of nature. The worship of Baal was associated with wild, unrestrained dances. In Elijah's time there was such a display by the priests of Baal who, in the course of the demonic dance, lacerated themselves with knives as they kept "limping around" the altar. (1Ki 18:26-29) Other translations say they "performed a limping dance" (AT), "danced in halting wise" (JP), "performed their hobbling dance" (JB). On making the golden calf, the Israelites also indulged in a form of pagan dancing before their idol, thus meriting Jehovah's condemnation.--Ex 32:6, 17-19.

    *** it-1 p. 833 Fire ***In carrying out war operations against their enemies, the Israelites consigned certain cities to the fire. (Nu 31:10; Jos 6:24; 11:11-13) Also, the graven images and sacred poles were burned. (De 7:5, 25; 12:3) In taking spoil, the Israelites passed metals through the fire, in effect sterilizing them.--Nu 31:22, 23.

    *** it-1 p. 1107 High Places ***Centers of False Worship. High places, or the sites or shrines where idolatry was engaged in, were to be found not only on hills and mountains but also in the valleys, in streambeds, in cities, and under the trees. (De 12:2; 1Ki 14:23; 2Ki 17:29; Eze 6:3) They were equipped with altars for sacrifice, incense stands, sacred poles, sacred pillars, and graven images. (Le 26:30; Nu 33:52; De 12:2, 3; Eze 6:6) At many of the high places, male and female prostitutes served. (1Ki 14:23, 24; Ho 4:13, 14) Frequently the high places were the scenes of licentious rites, including ceremonial prostitution and child sacrifice.--Isa 57:5; Jer 7:31; 19:5.

    *** it-1 p. 1169 Idol, Idolatry ***The Law that Jehovah gave to his people after liberating them from Egypt was explicitly directed against idolatrous practices so prevalent among the ancients. The second of the Ten Commandments expressly prohibited making for worship a carved image or a representation of anything in the heavens, on the earth, or in the waters. (Ex 20:4, 5; De 5:8, 9) In his final exhortations to the Israelites, Moses emphasized the impossibility of making an image of the true God and warned them to beware of the snare of idolatry. (De 4:15-19) To further safeguard the Israelites from becoming idolaters, they were commanded not to conclude any covenant with the pagan inhabitants of the land they were entering or to form marriage alliances with them, but to annihilate them. All existing appendages of idolatry--altars, sacred pillars, sacred poles, and graven images--were to be destroyed.--De 7:2-5.


    Now that you know you were unquestionably wrong (unless you now challenge the scholarship of the WTS), I think you owe Leolaia and abject apology for calling her opinion utterly stupid and monstrous. Don't you?

    But, not unlike honest evaluation of facts, that would require humility you don't possess, wouldn't it "Scholar."


  • scholar

    Old Soul

    What point then are you trying to make as your comments are not relative to the point at hand?

    scholar JW

  • jgnat

    Well, Pseudo-Scholar, I grasped the point of the endy stick pretty quickly here. You claim the cross is a pagan symbol and it would be sacrilege to claim that Jesus died on it. Here you are provided abundant examples that poles, or pointy sticks, have pagan origins.

    Again, the shape of the sacrifice instrument is not nearly as significant as the significance of the act.

  • AnnOMaly
    What point then are you trying to make as your comments are not relative to the point at hand?

    I'm amazed that somebody who claims to have letters after his name fails to see the relevance of Old Soul's point. The stake was also pagan as the Insight book repeatedly brings out. Your argument quoted in OS's post, scholar, is bogus.

    The Son of God was executed as a blaspheming seditionist. The ones who carried out the execution were unclean pagans. Everything about his murder was shameful and disgraceful. The vast majority saw him as some kind of low-life. And you are quibbling over the taintedness (or otherwise) of the instrument of execution! Crazy!

  • Hellrider

    Old Soul

    What point then are you trying to make as your comments are not relative to the point at hand?

    scholar JW

    If you can`t understand the point, or its relevance, that`s to bad for you. Perhaps you should sue your high school teachers. I`ll try to explain it for you:

    1) Celebrated Scholars argument is that Jesus couldn`t have been executed on a cross, because it is a pagan symbol. Hence, he must have been executed on a pole.

    2) Old Sould proves to you, that the pole is also a pagan symbol, in fact a pagan symbol used more frequently than the cross.

    3) This means that your argument "Jesus couldn`t have died on a cross, he must have died on a pole/stake" invalid.

    If you didn`t understand this part, then all the work produced by the participants on this forum, concerning other parts of this issue, like the meaning of "stavros", "zulon", the customs and laws of the jews and the romans, etc, has been like (literally) throwing pearls for swine. And that`s just a shame, it took me at least three minutes to write this post, and I could have spent those three minutes on something much more important, like cutting my toe nails. Clebrated Scholar, there are books on elementary logic, but I`m afraid you would start on a level so low, that there hasn`t been written any book that would suit you.

  • Hellrider

    No reply? I thought you were here to defend the holy Watchtower?

    scholar rides off in conquest. you still riding?

  • joelbear

    its a manufactured difference to make "the truth" stand out. clearly it is irrelevant to the main thrust of christian mythology.

  • ChristianObserver

    Scholar stated: But because stauros is a synonym with xulon it was definitely a piece of wood or tree that our Lord hung

    Acts 16:24 includes the word xulon

    The NWT, in common with most Bibles, translates xulon as "stocks" in that verse as follows:

    Acts 16:24 Because he got such an order, he threw them into the inner prison and made their feet fast in the STOCKS (xulon).

    So following your line of reasoning that stauros and xulon are synonyms, would you say that "STOCKS" is a legitimate translation of both stauros and xulon?

  • Narkissos

    @ CO

  • LittleToe

    It's been done to death, I know, especially given that it's hardly an article of Christian faith, but I can't resist this:

    Doesn't a tree have branches?

    If it were actually a tree instead of a plank, why would he have to be suspended upright, especially given that he carried part of it?

    C'mon, Scholar, you have to have an answer for that one

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