by Ingenuous 33 Replies latest jw experiences
There must be a powerful influence atworkWatchtower org. for you to be ready to cut off ties with father, mother, sister, aunt, uncle, and grandmother [and children]. What are you pursuing that makes that kind of result worthwhile?
I've asked my mother this several times in the past.
As if family means anything to these heartless humans.
sKally
If you don’t pray and ask for guidance then how is Jehovah supposed to know that you are looking for truth and pure worship?
yes how indeed is the almighty all knowing all seing god with angels and holy spirit working for him at all times supposed to work that one out
The "Proclaimers" book says that in the early 1870s a group formed from all different denominations to examine the Bible.
Based on your Fathers argument there was no way they could gain god's approval or guidance. Therefore JWs since their inception have not been guided by god, but the devil.
Russel was already producing leaflets under the banner of "Laodicean Ministries" His sisters argued he was the FDS. He had been born for a purpose.
The whole religion is like a clever lobster trap, they lead you each step of the way until it is too late to escape. If you try the other lobsters attack and cut off your limbs.
As for it being your fault that they are cutting you off - Hitler could argue "it's your own fault that we have to gas you. You are jews and refuse to change"
HB
Want to really freak him out??!! I have a wiccan email address. I"d be glad to forward anything to him. Just a thought. I'll keep him in my meditations!
shelley
If they did, they would just take a Bible out on FS and offer REAL Bible studies
Every once in a while, no doubt in response to criticism from people like us, a CO would come thru and insist that all the dubbies should go out in FS sometime "with just your bible." He'd then demonstrate how this was done. A few zealots would get wild-eyed and embrace the technique, at least temporarily. But the rank and file reaction was pretty much: WTF?
Well, not in so many words. But there were bewildered. What? Give up the presentation I always fall back on? You mean I can't hide behind the magazines? The thought of going d-2-d with nothing but a bible strikes terror into the heart of most dubs. And yet... dubs claim nobody uses the bible like JWs!
1 Corinthians 1:10) 10 Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. . .
Hi Ingenuous,
When Paul made this statement, what did he really mean? Did he mean that there was to be an agreed upon list of beliefs and doctrines that the brothers would adhere to and never stray from their unity on these issues? Who were to decide what was correct understanding of doctrine and beliefs? If there are disagreements over interpretation of scripture, does that mean that there is not unity in the congregrations?
Once again the WT Society is forcing an understanding that is not supported in scripture. Paul wasn't saying that all Christians should have a forced unity that was all too robotic. A Christian can disagree with the finer details, but still agree on the major issues in the Bible. Most Christian denominations believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Just because there is a difference in how that is understood does not mean that there is not unity there. The divisions exist because certain denominations insist on their interpretation, understanding and insight of the scriptures. When other denominations do not accept every jot and tittle of what that particular church teaches, then that is viewed by that denomination as being disunited and the cause for divisions. Again, that very staunch and unyielding view is what actually causes the divisions. But, what was Paul really talking about at 1 Corinthians 1:10?
When you read the context Paul wasn't talking about being united in doctrines and beliefs. The early Christians were saying that they belonged to this particular person or that particular person. This is what it says at 1 Corinthians 1:10-13:
10 I appeal to you brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul" ; another, "I follow Apollos" ; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
Paul continues on a little further with his argument, but that should suffice to make my point. You'll notice that the cause for disagreements and divisions was that various individuals were saying that they belonged to Paul, Apollos, Cephas and Christ. A Christian belongs to Christ and not to individuals that may have helped them to learn about Christ. Rather than each Christian claiming to belong to a particular individual, all Christians belong to Christ and this attitude would lead to unity, not disagreements and divisions.
So, the WT is taking another scripture out of context to insist on their interpretation of scripture and the rank and files accepting their interpretations, no questions asked is what will ensure unity. Your father is spouting the WT line on this matter. Paul wanted the early Christians to be united in their belief that they all belonged to Christ and not to some human teacher. There is no mention of an enforced unity of belief and doctrine. As I mentioned earlier in my post it is the WT's insistence on their interpretation as the only valid one is what actually causes divisions because then the rank and file Witness is, in effect, saying, "I belong to the WT," or "I belong to the Governing Body," or "I belong to the Faithful and Discreet Slave." It is this very thing that Paul was warning about and it is why that the WT's staunch stand has led to disagreements and divisions.
I would suggest doing some research on the various points that your father raised. Maybe he won't listen to you now, but you will be ready for him if he comes back spouting WT theology. Someone that has been indoctrinated as long as your father has been won't be easy to reason to, but with persistence and patience you just might get through the WT armor.
Mr. Shakita
Since your father doesn't listen - respond like this:
"Dad, I will respond to every statement you just wrote out to me if YOU LISTEN to what I say. TRY TO UNDERSTAND where I am coming from."
You could even add:
"Even if I am DEAD WRONG try to understand HOW I CAME TO THIS WRONG CONCLUSION. In a similar way a wife may kill her abusive husband - it wasn't the wisest choice but you can empathize with how she came to that decision."
Just simply tell him you would like him to listen. Leave it at that. No details. Just tell him you would like him to sit quietly and listen.
Then prepare and craft your presentation to him. Practice it out loud like you would a demonstration at meeting (Ugh ... sorry for the analogy.)
Unless of course, you want to just piss him off for awhile ... then let him alone. Heheheh.
-ithinkisee
Respond.
I my self thought at one point it was a waste of time, but the more you talk to witness friends and family about the problems you see they (meaning the overseers, HQ) will collectively observe there is a serious discord in the USA and many other countries in how witnesses good standing/fading ones view the religion we are in. A few days ago I talked to a MS trained friend who was in town about my low meeting attendance being the results of problems I see with our religion he disagreed on many issues and many times brought up better understanding policy but never the less there were some issues he never knew of. When asked the 64thousand dollar questions if I felt witnesses are the true religion, I answered I had not examined all the thousands of religions that exist, but to keep a communication open for future debates I told him that I felt we did.
Use the replies from this knowledgeable bunch to stimulate yours dad’s intellectual facets.
I loved this bit of insight from "Quotes"
Funny, but your dad is describing very well the humble origins of JWs (aka Bible Students). Russell printed that any bible student is free to believe or not believe as he sees fit:
Do not be too hard on your father though. He is responding the only way that he can , by reverting to tried and tested formula and keeping the blinkers on , safely. I am sure it chokes him up too. He really believes that life is available through the Borg, and death elsewhere.
I get called a worshiper of Satan too, and that for visiting this board ..
Great responses, guys.
The problem with answering this latest bit of "insight" is that it simply prolongs the inevitable. Perhaps if I was a masochist, I'd enjoy the abuse sure to be hurled my way in the meantime. But I gave up masochism when I left JWs. Before this latest email, I've responded, and Responded, and RESPONDED to his arguments/assertions, to absolutely no benefit. Nothing I say makes a dent in his prejudices, no answers I give replace the assumptions he's made.
I love him dearly, I understand where he's coming from and why, and I only hope I can be patient and Christ-like for as long as it takes. Responding will just result in more pain for both of us.
I don't see this as "letting him get away with it." To keep someone from "getting away" with something, they have to hear and understand your argument and admit they're in the wrong - or, at least, that their perspective is not the only correct one.
I love the guy, but it seems all he hears when I talk is a series of clicks and whistles.
