Experience being 'out of the loop' of helpful information in the cong.

by out of the box 21 Replies latest jw experiences

  • delilah
    delilah

    Dear Out...I'd be PI$$ED off for that one....that mother should have told you , before any sleepover. Your son should NEVER have been subjected to that, it was ABUSE, plain and simple. For the "elders" to say they were "keeping on eye on it", is just bulls#%t....They further victimized your son, and any other unsuspecting boy and his family. THAT IS JUST WRONG!!! I've often questioned their saying "the weeding work is being done" WEEDING of all the GOOD people???? Give it a break. I sure hope your son is doing OK after this, my heart goes out to you.

    Delilah ( I remember this happened in my congregation years ago too, and the same thing was said, "we're watching the situation", but there would be hell to pay if it ever involved an elder's child!!)

  • Berean
    Berean

    The main thing that drove me out, after years as an elder, was the consistent cover up of anything embarrassing “TO THE SOCIETY.”

    As long as there was nothing that could be considered as reflecting back on the Society, it was “make it public as an example” (as in public reproof or disfellowship). However, if it reflected on the Society or involved the Society - cover-up and intimidate those that dared to open their mouths, and if you as an elder didn’t go along with the cover-up … well, you just were a renegade like Korah in Moses day.

    Berean (no part of cover-ups ... labeled renegade)

  • Bryan
    Bryan

    Out of the box,

    I'm so sorry. It's so difficult when we know things hurt our children. And the stand these people take makes me sick.

    I hope you and your family have enjoyed your life out of the borg.

    Take care,

    Bryan

    Have You Seen My Mother

  • out of the box
    out of the box

    Honesty, Yes We felt the same way as you do!

    Berean, Yes, that was my take. When I talked to the kids, THEY could SEE clearly that we did not fit in with the 'elite' of the cong. That there was a 'click' we did not fit into. I brought this up with an elder of course, and he thought I was being paraoid. And of course not to discuss my views with others in the cong.

    Bryan, this did not hurt us as deeply as the 'collected wrongs' that started happening to sort of expel us from the group. And by this is that it was like nausea before you lose your lunch. We felt we were of the outer fringe because we did not fit the 'cookie cutter' type member of the cong. If you read my other posts you will know we stayed in about 9 years! Things were not all that bad when the kids were young, but as we stayed in and the kids got older (they were 6 & 4 when I joined) there was no support for 'teens' and you know how inquisitive they are, bless them questioning the world as they should as we all should!

    My opinion about group dynamics: As new members came to the cong. dynamics would change as it happens in groups. Let's say we were filling a spot in the cong. for the lower income working class not educated (no college) single parent family. You know the ones you have to give credit to for surviving on fumes and still managing. Now, someone comes along that 'does it' better than you! Now, you are cast aside for that attention and must 'reinvent' yourself. Nothing is static in this world. Well, since new membership doesn't come along every day, it is not something you are on the lookout for. This I feel is what happens in the 'outer rim' of the clicks. This is just my observation. Single moms, etc are out there. If they are 'marryable' to the ones that are in the cong. then the approach is different like when I got baptized and the vultures started swarming in!

    I say this because once I left the org. I went back to college and got my B.S. I observed different behavior towards me. I went back to that same cong. to visit about 5 years later. A few of the brothers who had been married to and were Pioneering were now divorced! And the ones that were 'off the wall' to me were gone. I was amazed how different they all were by my observation. A couple of them came by where I was sitting and wispered to me that they wanted to meet with me after the meeting. I had a swarm of older members come by to see me. I gave them 10 minutes of 'MY' news of school and how I was doing and then had to 'run' and would come by again before leaving (was visiting from another state where I now lived). The size of the cong. was 1/3 at least (so many empty seats!!!). I was a much more confident person, sure of myself and proud to be who I was. The main question by two of the divorced brothers was 'are you going to be staying around here?' And the way I figured it... now my kids were grown (last one a teen (calm well adjusted) now) and I had a degree and a JOB and could support a Pioneering brother!!!

    Delilah, I was so PI$$ED off too! I had to use that anger constuctively so that I would not go insane! We did OK, my son didn't get permantly scared by that insident. We understand and felt people had different ways of living after all I had discussed life with them and I continued to discuss this insident with him so that he could tell me how he felt and we worked it out. It was the elders trying to protect the reflection on the society that got us. We felt were being sacrificed (including the other boy who was done wrong as well) and no one cared what happened to us who we now knew were NOTHING in the scheme of things. And the clear vision we now had of how the org was run! And how could WE keep ourselves under this type of 'so called love' and the 'truth' that we could clearly see had NO TRUTH in it! We had a choice to make and we chose to start to leave. I didn't want to move too quickly so we could adjust after all I had been in for 9 years. My two oldest were now teens and they handled the quick leave pretty well except for their 'dive' into the world where they tried everything including pot. That was a scary time for me. They survived and so did I. We have done well and will contiunue to think for ourselves. My now adult kids and I are not anywhere near the borg.

    Thank you for all your kind and supportive comments! I am grateful for the time you took to post about this to me.

    out fo the box

  • toladest
    toladest

    This does not sound like a simple situation of a boy making homosexual advances. If that had been the case you would think he would have tried to cultivate a good relationship with your son, just the way it works between boys and girls. This boy was clearly being abusive! This is a case of molestation. I don't care if the boys are the same age. The boy made threats as well to have him keep the secret. And it makes you wonder if that boy has been abused himself. If a 12 year old boy put his hands, uninvited in the pants of your 12 year old girl and tried to feel her up, what would you think? Most preteens are awkward holding hands at first. That is not to say that there are NO preteens engaging in sexual contact. They seem to get younger and younger. Very Scary. But it usually is a progression from holding hands, to kissing, and on. Normal, non-abusive relationships don't start by one party ubruptly reaching in the others pants.

  • out of the box
    out of the box

    toladest,

    I agree. This is why I discussed the outcome of it all with my son and daughter at the time. And why I posted it here. The cong. let us down because the problem of the type of people in the cong. was worse than this one problem as we found out a short time after. I have a few other stories that involved a bible study of mine with a former elder. I will tell that one soon. That was after this insident and we were well on our way out and so the shock of it was not as bad.

    As I stated we did not hate the boy, and were lulled by all the brainwashing before it happened, but not for long. Put it this way, we WOKE UP to the fact that WE needed to look out for ourselves and not give up ourselves to the elders or the borg. It was clear that they couldn't handle the job. Mind you a few good Christian things happened to me and some nice things did happen, but they did not balance the stuff I had to put up with, after all there are 3 or 4 days a week you are around the people at meetings and out in service with the elders far removed up near the 'stage' and we are in the trenches! And at social events, the ranks or behavioral problems do not desolve!

    todladest, Thanks for your concerns. My goal of joining this board was to tell these stories and they are the TRUTH as to what I DID actually experience and of course it is my side of things, my observations so you will only hear one side. But, if it helps anyone at all who is going through even a fraction of these types of events, and they end up staying out, or start to leave, then I feel I have 'witnessed' well. When I look back now on this board at the things I have let out for the first time in years I just shake my head. I put up with all that? I have not told 'worldly' people all this. I told some of my friends, and the Psychologist that helped me to straighten out my conscience. But, to see them in print for all of you to read is something I can't explain. Thank you for the opportunity to get up on a soapbox and express these events and feelings I have. They do not hurt anymore nor do they affect me like they used to. Kind of makes me want to go out in service to witness to the neighbors to 'NOT' let those fake Christians in their home, to go out and bare witness as I am doing here!

    out of the box

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    A little boy doing overtly sexual things to another little boy without his consent is in need of treatment. Sad the mother chose to pretend it is a spiritual problem and to follow the advice of an untrained elder. That boy was probably molested himself and needed help.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    I sat my son and daughter down and filled them in on what happened. They then proceeded to tell me of all the teasing (because they wore old clothes to the meeting, and we were poor at the time because I was raising them alone, etc.) What I heard them say about the 'truth' they were living (an actual hell, and they hated the org). That really made me think. I told them they didn't have to go anymore, nor did they ever have to go back if their hearts were not in it..........

    ..We have never looked back nor ever thought we would go back. I visited a few times because I wanted to see who was left and what kind of path they all went down after we left. I saw they were not blessed because it all fell apart. My family though is still together and we are alive and well.

    You sound like one hell of a good Mum! You children should be very proud of you.

    Nic'

  • dorayakii
    dorayakii

    Although being "in the loop" gives you a unique perspective on certain things, it often results in being unapproachable. People whom i've considered my close friends have concealed important aspects of themselves that friends really should know about, simply because i am the son of an elder and there exists the possibility that i would go and tell my father. I've always tried to be approachable and i've never been a tatter-tale especially in light of the cold, non-communicative relationship i have with my father, but often i've overheard things about my friends from other people that they've viewed as having "slipped out".

    I think that because of my outgoing way on the platform and my logical way of bringing out an arguement from the Bible (i always tried to avoid the Watchtower if possible), many in the congregation viewed me as "super-fine" and "ultra-spiritual", when i was in fact openly admitting that i had "weaknesses" (never directly stating what they were, because if i had, i would have been thrown out before you could say "judicial comitee").

    You admit you have "weaknesses", then people say "Woooow, he is so spiritual for admitting his weaknesses, AND hes the son of an elder, he must be sooooooo spiritual... i could never tell him about this, i'd look so inferior next to his elevated spirituality"... Its a Catch-22 that i could never get out of...

    Being the child of an elder can be pretty lonely...


    Coming back to the point though...... yes, toladest, i also agree... i see the pattern unfolding many, many times, of people being put in unfavourable situations and then the seriousness of it being shrugged off as as inconsequencial. OutOfTheBox, you should have been informed of the the elder's son's tendencies. However if they felt uncomfortable telling you this, they should have used their discretion and not have allowed the two boys to be alone together, what-alone share the same bed. It seems they have a warped view of homosexuality. They seem to have believed he would "grow out of it", that it was a "phase"....... Well, he might have done, but this does not seem to be the case here. It had happened more than once, evidently because "the elders knew about it", and the boy was obviously struggling with what the meetings had told him was wrong.

    Think about it this way: if your child had been a girl, and this situation had taken place, there would have been a lot more candour and less dismissal. Discilplianary action would have been put in place because deviations from "normal" heterosexuality are viewed as permanent abnormalities. As homosexuality was involved, it is merely viewed as a "phase" or a "one-off sin" (albeit a more serious one) ... Its precisly this attitude that was manifest in the Questions from Readers in the 1972 Jan 1 Watchtower. Anal sex does not constitute adultry because the two individuals do not become "one-flesh" there is therefore no reason for divorce... Fantastic reasoning...

    They don't view homosexuality as a normal sexual development, and consequently they don't view abusive homosexal behavior to be of any particular importance, so therefore they have caused their son to view it in the same light. This is the reason i believe that he was moved to do this abusive act, because he felt subconsciously that his feelings were already wrong, so it wouldn't phase him to stretch this wrongness-in-his-mind to actual wrongness. (This is a key reason i believe why in the past, a higher ratio of adult gays had multiple sex partners, because of this cultural indoctrination that what they are doing is already wayward, so whats the harm in being even more extreme?)... If the boy was taught that he could be "normal" and still gay, i doubt he would have done this to your son... Obviously JW doctrine leaves no room for this "liberal" thinking, and i've heard of a similar incident in my own KH which proves its not just a one-off thing in the organisation.

    We understand and felt people had different ways of living after all I had discussed life with them and I continued to discuss this insident with him so that he could tell me how he felt and we worked it out.

    It is good that your son learnt this lesson, and i hope the other boy also came to realise this, instead of going through life feeling wrong.

    My first visit to the "Common Bond" forum last week, left me gobsmacked at the amount of gays who stay clinging to the organisation and view themselves as disgusting, some even avoiding meetings because of the shame, but clinging to the idea that this is the Truth. I fear that they will never be at peace, that they will never find balance, that they will not be able to settle down in a normal monogamous relationship, that they will continue to be involved in socially "abnormal" activities and they will go to their grave with a guilt-ridden conscience.

  • toladest
    toladest

    Out of the Box,

    I certainly am grateful that you posted your expierience here. I have myself been a victim of sexual abuse within the org. I was just reiterating the point that this was clearly sexual abuse and not merely a homosexual crush. The seriousness of that situation was apparent and yet the elders and the mother did NOTHING but pray and hope he grew out of it. That is appalling to me! It is also very upsetting that the mother would let her son spend the night with other youths! How was this supposed to help him????? And to put your son at risk!!!! What nerve! I feel sympothy for you and your son having been put through that.

    You mentioned the counseling you have sought for yourself. Has your son had counseling? How is he dealing with it? These things can leave scars for a lifetime. Sometimes a person can be going along just fine and it suddenly comes back and smacks them in the face. Just makes sure he knows you are there for him if that ever happens.....

    Best wishes to you and your family. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

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