Another 607 / 587 BCE question, How do JW's fix the 20 years ?? (page 4)

Hellrider

Oh holy crap, I must be completely retarded, it`s the old testament, of course it could never say 607 bc, LOOOL.

(#desperately trying to resist editing my previous post, oh dear God)

JCanon

How do the JW's get the extra 20 years, I understand the 2520 years and going back from 1914.

The 20 years comes from the acknowledgement of JWs of the Biblical reference at 2 Chronicles 36;21 is simply too straightforward to sidestep. That verse talks about 70 years of desolation of the land to pay back it's sabbaths...

JWs read this and interpret this as a reference to mean the land was supposed to be desolated for 70 years. That being the case, Babylonian records aside, they side the the Bible in this regard and dating the return of the Jews that ended the 70 years in 537BCE, they count back to 607BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. This just happens to be 20 years askew from the Babylonian chronology that dates the 18th of Nebuchadnezzar in 587BCE.

So the way they deal with this is Bible versus secular records in which case, where there is a direct or unresolvable contradiction, the Bible is trusted as the superior and true reference, being the inspired word of God and the pagan records considered defective.

That's where the 20 years comes from. It's actually based on the Bible.

As a trivial note, though, Josephus at Antiquities 11.1.1 likewise claims there were 70 years from the last deportation (4 years later) to the 1st of Cyrus and thus he too agrees with both the Bible and JWs that the land was desolate for 70 years, though not exactly the same 70 years as the witnesses, but certainly expanding the NB period, making it 26 years longer than the Babylonian records, which if the Bible is correct, would be presumed to be revised records.

JC

TheListener

I found this on a website that doesn't seem to be working well, so I will copy/paste the contents:

587 BCE - In Conflict with Bible Prophecy

The proponents of the 587 BCE theory (for the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians) insist that there is no evidence of a gap of 21 years during the reigns of the Babylonian kings; thus, they reject the claim that Jerusalem fell in 608 BCE as taught by those who adhere to a full 70 years of desolation for the land of Israel. Yet the members of the 587-school are at a loss to explain the gap created for those last kings of the Assyrian Empire who are said to have ruled for longer periods than the available evidence will support. Thus, on the one hand, they are willing to tolerate an unsupported gap in the Assyrian Empire prior to the fall of Jerusalem, whereas, on the other hand, they insist that no gap during the Babylonian Empire after the fall of Jerusalem is possible without evidence. And neither are the adherents of the 587-school able to account for the impossibility of 40 years of desolation for the land of Egypt prior to the fall the Babylonian Empire. That there is an insufficient amount of time for the fulfillment of events of prophecy prior to the fall of Babylon, in itself, demonstrates that something is seriously wrong with the overall view of the 587-school.

Concerning Egypt's Desolation

After the fall of Jerusalem Jeremiah had warned those left over in the land not to go down to the land of Egypt on account of the pending destruction and desolation of that land by Nebuchadnezzar.

"For thus saith Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel: As mine anger and my wrath hath been poured forth upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so shall my wrath be poured forth upon you, when ye shall enter into Egypt; and ye shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach; and ye shall see this place no more."

- Jeremiah 42:18.

Nevertheless, the Jews refused to heed Jeremiah's warning and left for Egypt. After their arrival in Egypt the word of Yahweh came unto Jeremiah with the following judgment:

"Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them. And he shall come, and shall smite the land of Egypt; such as are for death shall be given to death, and such as are for captivity to captivity, and such as are for the sword to the sword. And I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt; and he shall burn them, and carry them away captive: and he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd putteth on his garment; and he shall go forth from thence in peace. He shall also break the pillars of Beth-shemesh, that is in the land of Egypt; and the houses of the gods of Egypt shall he burn with fire."

- Jeremiah 43:10-13.

Ezekiel, too, prophesied of Egypt's pending destruction while he was in Babylon. Thus, there were two witnesses against Egypt - Jeremiah in Egypt, and Ezekiel in Babylon. Jeremiah prophesied that the death of Pharaoh Hophra would serve as the sign of the pending invasion of Nebuchadnezzar. (Jeremiah 44:30) Ezekiel's prophecy came after the reign of Zedekiah. (Ezekiel 29:1, 2) Nebuchadnezzar had taken all the kings of the lands surrounding Judah captive and left their lands desolate; Egypt was soon to follow suite. Thus, Egypt was to become desolate in the midst of the countries that were already desolate at that time.

"Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and will cut off from thee man and beast. And the land of Egypt shall be a desolation and a waste; and they shall know that I am Jehovah. Because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it; therefore, behold, I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from the tower of Seveneh even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be a desolation forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries." - Ezekiel 29:8-12.

The word of Yahweh came again to Ezekiel in the 27th year of his captivity, which was 16 years after the fall of Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 29:17) After the completion of the long siege against Tyre Yahweh informed Ezekiel that the time had come for Nebuchadnezzar to fulfill the prophecy against Egypt.

"Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyre: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was worn; yet had he no wages, nor his army, from Tyre, for the service that he had served against it. Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt as his recompense for which he served, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord Jehovah. In that day will I cause a horn to bud forth unto the house of Israel, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am Jehovah." - Ezekiel 29:18-21.

The prophecy concerning the "horn" that was to "bud forth unto the house of Israel" came to pass in the 37th year of the captivity of Jehoiachin, which was 26 years after the fall of Jerusalem.

"And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evil-merodach king of Babylon, in the first year of his reign, lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison; and he spake kindly to him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon, and changed his prison garments. And Jehoiachin did eat bread before him continually all the days of his life: and for his allowance, there was a continual allowance given him by the king of Babylon, every day a portion until the day of his death, all the days of his life." - Jeremiah 52:31-34.

Amasis, who had succeeded Hophra, was one of the kings taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar. Whether or not he was held at Babylon for the entire 40 years cannot be determined from scripture. It is possible that he was held captive in Media by king Astyages, who was an ally to Nebuchadnezzar. Many of the Egyptians may have served the Medes during their 40 years of exile. This would harmonize with Ezekiel's prophecy that Yahweh would "scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them through the countries." (Ezekiel 29:12) The end of Egypt's 40 years of desolation would align with the death of Astyages and the rise of Cyrus. It was probably Cyrus who freed the Egyptians and allowed them to return to Egypt in 548 BCE. At this time Nabonidus was ruling in Babylon; and the friendly relationship that had existed between Babylon and Media during the reigns Nebuchadnezzar and Astyages was no longer in effect. Ezekiel prophesied that the Egyptians would return after 40 years.

"For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the peoples whither they were scattered; and I will bring back the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their birth; and they shall be there a base kingdom. It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it any more lift itself up above the nations: and I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations. And it shall be no more the confidence of the house of Israel, bringing iniquity to remembrance, when they turn to look after them: and they shall know that I am the Lord Jehovah." - Ezekiel 29:13-16.

Jeremiah also prophesied that Egypt, after its being taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar, would again be inhabited.

"The daughter of Egypt shall be put to shame; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north. Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel, saith: Behold, I will punish Amon of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with her gods, and her kings; even Pharaoh, and them that trust in him: and I will deliver them into the hand of those that seek their lives, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of his servants; and afterwards it shall be inhabited, as in the days of old, saith Jehovah." - Jeremiah 46:24-26.

Thus, it is plain to see how the fulfillment of the prophecy for Egypt's 40 years of desolation and its concurrent service to the nations occurred from 588 BCE until 548 BCE. Furthermore, since Nebuchadnezzar did not invade Egypt until his thirty-seventh year, some 19 years after the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent siege against Tyre, it is impossible to harmonize Egypt's 40 years of desolation with the 587 date for the fall of Jerusalem. Any attempt to do so would place the end of Egypt's 40 years well past the fall of Babylon - a time during which Egypt had long since been inhabited. That Egypt was inhabited after the fall of Babylon is a fact accepted among the proponents of the 587 date. Those who argue against a full 70 years of desolation for the land of Judah cannot dispute this fact without further distorting the meaning and fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

Hellrider

The Listener, the guy that wrote that, is he a JW? I really don`t understand how the dating can be done without ANY secular sources at all. Could someone please explain? I mean, if NO secular sources are brought into play, then the Bible would have to have some sort of detailed dating-system for all the years from around ...534? - until Jesus birth...or?

heathen

Good point hellrider . It's kinda like the WTBTS saying jesus became king of the world invisibly in 1914 . Where's the evidence ? It's all a matter of opinion and dogma . So it says that in the 16th year of Israels captivity, egypt became desolate , wow jeeze that's telling alot there . BTW I did almost doze off while reading that .....

Hellrider

The Listener: I googled around, and found out who wrote that: His name is George J.Parrish jr. He has also written stuff like this: http://members.aol.com/gparrishjr/index.html (Jehovahs witnesses 1914). He isn`t a JW, but he has some weird bible-interpretations. I`m not sure which faith-camp to place him in, maybe adventists? I`m not sure, but he`s not your "regular theologian". I`d take whatever he has to say with a pinch of salt. And thanks, Heathen...I`m not very good with math, in fact I`m horrible...but sometimes it takes an idiot or a kid to see the obvious...

TheListener

I appreciate your comments. I posted it to get some comments from those better educated than myself.

(Listener, of the Awake! college degree class)

RevFrank

Watchtower doesn't have to prove anytrhing according to Bethel. either you accept the 607 thing or you won't be baptized. And if you doubt and you're a witness, don't go running to the Elders and ask.You might risk the commette and being Dfd.

History teaches us that 587 B.C. was the fall.....not 607. The watchtower has no verification on 607. That's what they depend upon. They know they will find plenty who'll believe it.

Hellrider

JCanon wrote: "JWs read this and interpret this as a reference to mean the land was supposed to be desolated for 70 years. That being the case, Babylonian records aside, they side the the Bible in this regard and dating the return of the Jews that ended the 70 years in 537BCE, they count back to 607BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. This just happens to be 20 years askew from the Babylonian chronology that dates the 18th of Nebuchadnezzar in 587BCE."

JCanon, this is wrong math. The point is that the BIBLE doesn`t say that the return of the jews ended in 537 BCE, it only says that "in the bla-bla year of kin something-something, the jews returned to the holy land bla bla bla", and whatever year that means, has to be established by secular sources. Therefore, it isn`t necessarily true that the jews ended their 70 years in 537 BC, it could just as well be in 557 BCE. Do you have secular sources to back up the claim that their exile ended in 537 BCE?

jdough

the answer is here http://www.jonathan.freehyperspace.com/

Another 607 / 587 BCE question, How do JW's fix the 20 years ??

Share this