Google "lapsarian controversy"
Is there a freedom of choice? (rree will)
by DannyBloem 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Hellrider
Right, I did, and read thru this:
http://www.geocities.com/jeremyandrobin/lapsariancontroversy.html
...and my conclusion is that there is scientifically and philosophically absolutely NO difference between "fore-ordination" and "predestination". The only difference I find is that "fore-ordination" is a word more positively charged. I struggle with seeing what the theological difference is, too. I particularily liked this part: "While Arminian schools do affirm antecedent decrees the level of personal involvement in a given cause/effect is increased to the point where most things are a joint-product between God and man. This means that God, working with man, will secure the end product of history." ...which, philosophically takes the responsibility of bad/ethically wrong actions, away from man. Judas was, in this context, only working as Gods tool, and had to do what he did, to ensure the course that history has taken (the "all-is-gods-will"/predestination - aspect lays really thick on this "fore-ordination"-thinking). My point still stands: If Man REALLY has free will, then the course of history is not all Gods work. If Hitler really had free will...then God would have to "plan around" his actions, and then history would not be foreordinated. If history has been "foreordinated", then Hitler had the obligation (to God) to invade the Soviet Union, an invasion that cost the lives of many millions men and women. 20 million Soviet citisens died in that invasion, and (I don`t remember the number for German soldiers but) at least a couple of million german soldiers. 300 000 german soldiers died at Stalingrad, alone. Furthermore, if Hitler was Gods "tool" and HAD to do the things he did, do ensure that history would go as we know it today (to ensure that Gods pland was carried out), he would have no responsibility for what he did, as he was merely working in accordance with Gods plan.
What people who believe in "fore-ordination" has to choose between, are these: A) Either man has no moral responsibility if his actions, as man is only working within Gods plan, and there IS foreordination...
...or: B) Man has a moral responsibility for his own actions, and there is no foreordination.
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LittleToe
...or: C)...
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Hellrider
Which is? You have to be more detailed, not just throw out words like "fore-ordination" and not elaborate on it further, just tell someone to google something. What is C, and why?
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LittleToe
I already answered in my previous posts. I distinguished between the two terms, and highlighted the dichotomy that the doctrine leaves. Don't go blaming me for either a) your laziness, or b) your lack of comprehension, or c)...
Given that you had to google, as I suggested, I suspect you've never actually studied the subject. Explain to me why I should prefer your suggested options, in that case?
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Hellrider
True, I hva never studied the subject, when I studied philosophy, I concentrated on the contradiction between free will and predestination. Yes, you distinguished between the two terms, but did nothing to really explain the distinction.
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LittleToe
One is a specific subset of the other - does that help?
How did you manage to study the subject and avoid the Lapsarian Controversy??
Anyhow, good luck with the further research - I personally find it a fascinating subject
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Hellrider
This distinction between fore-ordination and predestination (personally, I don`t see the distinction) is an a) theological distinction only, at least as far as I know, and b) is not a subject much emphasised in philosophy. And c) no, it doesn`t help...
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LittleToe
These are theological terms. If you want to stick to philosophy then you are using the wrong word-tools.
Foreordination - This is the method by which God decrees and determines a particular outcome and is most closely related to predestination. It is related to both people and events in Scripture.
Predestination - This is God's sovereign act of ordaining the perfect means to accomplish His own perfect ends of what He had determined in His decree. This is always/only related to people in the Scriptures.
From my own theological perspective, I would tighten down Predestination even further to state that God "elects" some to salvation, and leaves the rest to their own devices (Infra-Lapsarian).
Hyper-Calvinists tend to view it that God "elects" some to salvation and some to perdition (Supra-Lapsarian).
The latter sounds more logical on the face of it, but leads to a view that God is the author of sin, which from my theological position is untenable.
Nonetheless, regardless of which position you take regarding Predestination, all the events surrounding it would be deemed Foreordained, including creation through eschatology. Foreordination is a far wider term.
Let me illustrate it this way: That particular hand-picked Golden-Delicious apple was tasty. This, however, tells me little about the wider context of the fruit industry.
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LittleToe
A couple of threads where we've discussed such stuff over the last year or so: