by DannyBloem 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Thank to MJ,
I put this question more or less on a basis that I wanted to know two things
1) How somebody can combine the doctrine of pre-destination or ordination with the free will
2) Where the free will comes from. This is more a scientific question.
Forme,I do not see the bible as my autority, so a discussion about the exact meaning of some single verses is meaningless for me,as I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
Danny
I should explain, before we start, that my interest is in Christian Mysticism and I can be quite eclectic. If I'm pushed to describe something sola scriptura, then my theology would lean towards Moderate Calvinism (Infra-lapsarian).
The two words are often used synonymously, but I believe this is in error, They have distinctions, as every word should.
Why a distinction? Because in Moderate Calvinist theology God permitted "the fall", sin and evil, but is not the author of it. By removing His restraining grace He allows man to take responsibility for his own actions, without neglecting His own sovereign will. This produces a dichotomy, but that's nothing new to the "mysteries" of theology, and perhaps explains my interest in it as a form of mysticism in it's own right
In the Bible (also in the passages above), God "chooses" the whole time. So if he created us in his image, he created us (according to the Bible) with free will. This is also said in Genesis, if my memory serves me right, that he created us with "the right to choose between god or bad". The doctrine of JWs is clear on this, that we have free will. However, the question arises, when the Bible also hints to predestination (as in Rom: 8.28-30), that some in a sense were "blessed" to do the right thing. "For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers". So the issue is: IF some people are "better by nature" (conformed to the likeness of his son) than others, that "doing the right thing" is EASIER for some than others, doesn`t that really mean that some has "less of a talent" for choosing right? And doesn`t that really mean that there is no free will?
That God has "foresight" is not problematic, I think (or maybe it is?), because although humans have free will, God knows the future, the past and the present...according to JWs teachings. He knows what your choice is going to be, no matter what that choice will be. The question is also relevant in the question of Judas. Did Judas really have free will? What if he had chosen NOT to betray Jesus? Then Jesus would not have died on the cross for the sins of all mankind, and there would have been no salvation for anyone. Was Judas Gods "tool"? Did God make him do it? If so, he should be allowed the ressurection. If God DIDN`T make him do it, then it sure was lucky for us all that he did...as his betrayal also was a factor in the historical developments around easter that year, that has contributed to mankinds hope of eternal life. Shouldn`t he be rewarded for that?
He knows what your choice is going to be, no matter what that choice will be.
IMHO, this means that the choice is known in advance, so then it can not be a matter of free-will.
I think free-will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive
Foresight becomes a problem for some if you define it as Him just looking into the future at what would happen, instead of actively planning it. Word distinctions, again...
Foresight becomes a problem for some if you define it as Him just looking into the future at what would happen, instead of actively planning it. Word distinctions, again...
I think you are right here LT. BUt it is more then a word distinction I think. This is whole different concept.And I do not think that MJ just means as planning the future, but better to let him answer this...
Most mainstream Christians believe that god is outside of time, meaning he can see the beginning, the end and all in-between simultaneously. He can not look from “now“ to the future or the past since he is not in any now. He sees all things that, for us, have been and will be. I say “see” but it is not “seeing” since to see implies one perspective, we are trapped in the cage of language. I am here now, for me the past is gone and the futures not yet come, but for god all are one. That is why the Christians clam Christ is on the cross in perpetuity.
If god (for lack of a better words) sees, has seen, will see me typing how does that take my free will away?
I am with MJ.
I often try to understand just what seperates us from those who live in the spirit world. The one thing that seems to pop out at me, is that man is stuck in a linear progression of time. I can't help but wonder if such a variable has any meaning in the spiritual world. It certainly can't be of any restriction to God.
C.S. Lewis (he is talking about him again! He must be a distant relative who collects royalties) put it this way; Think of the progression of time for man like reading a book. Man can only read a single word at a time moving forward, and never going back to reread. Nor can man skip ahead. God on the other hand can jump around all He wants.
I guess that doesn't get to the question of pre-destination, but it is related in some way that I can't figure out, and would probably only seem to make sense if I still smoked weed.
My head hurts.
Censer Watchtower esse delendam slow-steady-deliberate-relentless
The one thing that seems to pop out at me, is that man is stuck in a linear progression of time.
Yep, if you think life is multi-demensional you are wrong. It is single dimensional and what is worse, we can't even change the direction and speed in which we travel.
Ok, Little Toe, I think I get it. It`s like the holy Trinity of "regular" Christianity: Logically an impossibility, but that`s just another sign of it`s divine nature...? Something like that? So the distinction makes the free will-issue into a "both,as man has free will, but God has still pre-ordained it or whatever"-thing? And yes, it`s inlogical, but that makes it really mystic and therefore cool and acceptable? (I am not mocking you, seriously, I am mocking religion)..But philosophically it won`t work. Philosophically or scientifically, God can`t have preordained everything, but still have made room for mans individual choice. Because, if God, in his "planning" of the future for mankind, would have to take into consideration the choices men make (he has foresight, and knows what they`ll do), he really isn`t preordaining it at all! Because He would have to plan "around" the choices MEN make, so therefore it isn`t him preordaining it! Or?...have I misunderstood?
