Daniel 4......

by Stromboli 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "With certain prophetic pronouncements we just have to wait and see how Jehovah will work it out."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "So, since the Bible doesn't say it represents God's Kingdom, and since the Bible says it represents Babylon's Kingdom, it is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society that is issuing the prophetic pronouncement."

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "Now, wait a minute! I didn't say that. We don't claim to be prophets."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "But you interpret fulfilled prophecies as having a future fulfillment that the Bible does not state. Isn't that prophesying?"

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "Well, yes. But only in the sense of telling forth what has already been prophesied."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "But, the Bible doesn't say it means what you say it means, so the Bible isn't prophesying it. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is."

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "No. They never claim to be prophets."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "Oh. So you are free to disagree?"

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "Oh, no! No. I couldn't do that."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "Well, why not? If they aren't prophets, why can't you disagree?"

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "They are spirit-directed."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "But ... if they are directed by the spirit to make utterance about things that haven't happened ... then they are prophets."

    {Mild-mannered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "No. They don't claim to be prophets."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "If they claim spirit-direction and they talk in advance of things they say will come, they are claiming to be prophets whether they use the word prophet or not. Can't you see that?"

    {Uncomfortable brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "No. They specifically say they are not prophets."

    {Sleepy-eyed householder, Reasoning Human} "If they say that and they say the other they are lying to you."

    {Disconcerted brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} "They wouldn't lie to me. Besides, it is obvious from the way Jehovah blesses the preaching work that they are God's only organization on earth today."

    {Smirking householder, Reasoning Human} "And what Scripture do you use to prove that statement?"

    {Flustered brother, J.W. Elderatyourdoor} Thumbs through Bible for ten minutes. "That's a good question. I will need to do some research on that and get back with you. How is next week about this same time?"

    {Smirking householder, Reasoning Human} "That'll be just fine." Knows he will never see J.W. Elderatyourdoor again.

  • Stromboli
    Stromboli

    Thanks Guys....

    I submitted the question to forums for JWs and more o less the discussion went as described by OldSoul......

    Oh well... I suppose that the fact that 1914 has WWI I believed it, I don't know, but it really is easy to see... And It frustrates me that no JW has given me an aswer to that....

    Thanks again.....

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    There is nothing to defend it except that the Watchtower wants it to be true. I have a similar line of reasoning at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/1914.htm

    Every other prophecy at Daniel has only one fulfillment, so there is nothing to suggest that Daniel 4 should have 2 prophetic fulfillments.

    Daniel 2: An immense image representing kingdoms

    Daniel 4: Seven times representing Nebuchadnezzar

    Daniel 5: Writing on the wall foretelling Babylon’s immediate destruction

    Daniel 7: Four beasts being 4 world powers

    Daniel 9: Seventy weeks foreshadowing Christ’s arrival

    Daniel 11: Kings of the North and South

    I received an email to my article from a JW justifying the concept that this is an end time prophecy with a second fulfillment. His line of reasoning was simply that since the 70 weeks is about the first coming this must be a prophecy about the second coming. Nothing to back up such an assertion.

  • Borgia
    Borgia

    The chapter consists out a letter, written by this Nebu to all people in his realm with the declaration that GOD IS RULER IN THE KINGDOM OF MANKIND! This chapter is not connected to an universal issue. The chapter is connected to a earthly issue. And this chapter is about Nebu acknowledging the fact that God is more powerfull than he is. So, this is not a prophetic chapter. This is a in the form of a letter written down "historic" relay of events that have alledgedly happended to the most powerfull ruler back then. END OF STORY. EXIT WBTS, 1914, 1818 the whole shebang.

    Saying anything else contradicts anything that is within the obvious meaning within Daniel 4. By going the path, like the WBTS, adventists, Brown, et all, have gone, the bible could be made to anything one would like it to say.

    Cheers

    Borgia.

  • Stromboli
    Stromboli

    Hello Borgia,

    I didn't expect to see my old post coming back up. Welcome to the forum.....

    Yep, doesn't make sense, does it....

    Stromboli

  • Stromboli
    Stromboli

    Hops....

    I just realized that you're a newby but you're not new here.....

    Well nice to meet you then

  • cyberdyne systems 101
    cyberdyne systems 101

    I tried to show my then wife, from the Daniel study book and she wouldnt even look at the points as though it was some apostate literature!

    CS 101

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    He was really dreaming about the Olympics.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    I too posted about this before as well. It's such a good point to make. Even if you give them the 607 date, there is still no conclusive way to prove that their interpretation is correct.
    The facts are clear, this interpretation is the product of over excited 19th century prophecy crazies who wanted to come up with dates when the end would come. So many did it, including Russell. To say they where 'Bible Students' who just wanted to find out 'what the Bible teaches' is a bunch of fluff.

  • Borgia
    Borgia

    Stromboli, thanks for the beer. We are having a small 36 degrees Celsius and it´s refreshing indeed. Credit where credit is due. JWfacts renewed the thread. I thought to respond since a lot of threads over the past weeks/ months discussed the 607/587 controversy. This part of the "puzzle" also is well worth considering but I suppose it comes down to either accepting it as an "end of days"-prophesy or not.

    Before I got into all kinds of explanations, proof, evidence, refutations and rebuttals, this was the first thing that crossed my mind: Is it an "end of days"-prophesy at all? I still have to read "Gentile times reconsidered" but I will do spent some time on that more out of historical curiosity than anything else. Call it: Two ways to disrupt the 7 times wetdream. To me the whole 7 times doctrine is ripe for the security shredder.

    Reading chapter 4 and investigating the terms used by Daniel, I found the whole story quite ambigious because a lot of claytablets have been discovered and my question was: where´s the letter on claytablet, since it is an official statement by the head of state?

    Apart from that: Why did Jesus not mention it when it had to do with his return? Why did this disciples not posed THE QUESTION? Paul was gifted with prophesy and explanation and healing. Why did he not mention the fact that Daniel might be hinting on a future fulfilment? Or, why did John not mention it because he was relating what would be happening in the day of the Lord?

    To many questions exists that cast doubt on the explanations by the 7th day adventist and all related denominations who profess to interpret Daniel 4 this way. From what I´ve read, back in those days, people were more convinced by the elegance, balance, the perfect fit, than real evidence.

    Now it is only a part of a doctrine to explain supremacy in spiritual matters.

    Cheers

    Borgia

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