Does "J" deal with imperfection?

by upside/down 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Perhaps the assumption is all wrong.... how do we prove J doesn't deal with imperfection, it rather seems He does. Jesus likened J to us- imperfect parents, that although being wicked love and do good to our children, never working evil towards them... and all the more so with "God".

    Is this just another false WTS assumption... we've just heard it so much we take it as fact. So why pray? If we're so imperfect. Yet Jesus said to pray continually that "God" hears us. Oh wait, that's only the 144K - silly me...

    u/d

  • disciple
    disciple

    Perhaps we need to wonder if it matters. Jesus, (God in the flesh) (If you have seen me you have seen my father) Was and Is the One who we believe in for everlasting life.. simple faith plus nothing equal salvation. A gift we cannot earn. All the rest of what we do would be out of appreciation for the gift, not earnings, not works that God owes us for ... Jesus said he would draw all sorts of men to him.. He said abide in me and I will abide in you. Religion has complicated the whole issue.. WE sinned , We need Salvation, Jesus is that Salvation.. Believe and our Sins are forgiven.. WHen He comes will He really find the Faith on the earth? Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!

  • upside/down
    upside/down
    WE sinned

    I have a problem with this assumption... yes we "sin" ie. miss the mark.

    But WHY do we sin? We have no choice in the matter (free will), no matter how hard you try you cannot avoid "sinning" in the Judeo/Christian way of looking at things.

    It's like telling a handicapped person that can't walk to be sorry for his ability to not walk and run about. He had no choice in the matter of his being handicapped. So why do we have much need of anything in the way of acts we can do toward "redemption".

    As far as I'm concerned "God" owes us the decency and dignity as intelligent creatures with relative free will the opportunity he afforded to Adam & Eve and Satan and his angels, all of whom got the advantage of starting out perfect and yet ended up imperfect. We on the other hand started out imperfect and remain as such... guilt cannot rightly be ascribed to someone that is dealt a raw deal in the first place. It's unfair and violate "God's" cardinal attributes.

    If "salvation" is a free gift from "God" then almost all men are sure to be given it, FREE. What one does with it after recieved is another matter...

    u/d (of the imperfect son of Adam class, just like everyone else class)

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I do disagree with the believe and be saved hypothesis for the 'devils believe' and it makes a mockery of ever living the christian life (ie just believe but no need to do any more.) I think there is a wealth of sciptural evidence that there are things we must do to accept the full ramifications of the atonement:

    1/ Faith in Jesus (the believe bit)
    2/ Baptism by immersion (faith without works is dead being alone)
    3/ Gift of the Holy Ghost (baptism of fire)
    4/ Obey the commandments (by their fruits you will know them)
    5/ Take the sacrament (take upon oneself the name of Christ)
    6/ Pray regularly
    7/ Overcome the natural man(control our thoughts and actions)

    I was reading yesterday that our works follow us after death so they must be important.

    So God teh Father deasl with us through the Mediator in almost all circumstances. Exceptions to the rule in LDS land:

    1/ Adam and Eve transgressed and still had the final interview / casting out in the presence of God the Father
    2/ Voice of God announces Jesus at His baptism
    3/ First Vision to again announce Jesus (LDS so not biblical)

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Qcmbr- I enjoy your replies... but it is apparent that your views are heavily swayed by your LDS background (naturally) of which I am not an expert (although I've talked extensively with and read some of their literature) nor inclined to even consider at this time in my life.

    I HATE ORGANIZED RELIGION.... no matter the flavor. I was raised Catholic, converted JW at 20 and went to school with a LOT of Mormons in SoCal. They were VERY SIMILAR culturally to the JW's althought the JW's considered them (Mormons) Satan's ultimate "angel of light" religion and the only imposter faith of "christendom" to give them a run for their money. They consider them a "mimick" cult designed to confuse the masses.... blah blah blah.

    The Mormons at least have the sense to know that $$$ makes the world go round.

    I guess I give up... "God" can come to me on my terms (very simple face to face will suffice). I tried His terms and all I got was high-control religious fanatics that want to control and use me to their ends. Life is too short anymore to waste in a fruitless pursuit. "God" has my number and knows where to reach me.

    It's only reasonable that He meet me (and the rest of humanity) at least half way... after all He is Almighty, right?

    "God" needs some good PR people... not the assholes He's been using for the last 2000 years. IMO.

    u/d (of the hates the bOrg class)

  • disciple
    disciple

    Think in threes> Father, Son, HolySpirit,/ Water , Blood, Spirit/ Body,Soul,Spirit/

    Salvation, Sanctification,Service

    We have life, but if we do not give ourselves water we die. (Our body dies)

    The life (our first birth) was given, nothing we did ourselves to receive it..

    To operate in abundance though we feed, drink, and think, (and act upon our thinking)

    To be rewarded for our works, they must be wholesome and heartfelt and in line with Gods will.

    The reward is not everlasting life, the reward is fellowship with Jesus and at least one of 7 possible crowns.

    Jesus is the Resurrection and Life is within Him.. If we abide in him we wil not die (our spirit remains living) and will continure liveing forever ( we are heirs) we are joint heirs with Christ, He has life within himself and when He gives it to us we will not die (even though our body does..) we are given a new body (a glorified body) and this happens as the First Resurrection.. Immediately.

    Where do you think the 24 elders come from?

    What about the story of the Rich man and Lazarus?( witnesses said just parable cause it conflicted with their no Hell doctrine)

    Jesus told the story and he knew what really happens.. Father Abraham was there too in the Heavens even though he had died before the setting of the story. If you wonder how heaven and hell could be so close to each other, remember you are seeing what I am communicating to you and I am no where near you.

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Greetings!

    I think there are a couple of things going wrong with your post and some of your assumptions.

    Regarding your thought that Jehovah God doesn't deal with us "directly" because we are imperfect, that is not quite accurate nor is it accurately what is taught by Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Aside from a few bible notables (Moses, Abraham, Jesus), and maybe Adam, there is no scriptural evidence that Jehovah God ever "talked face to face" or directly with humans. Even these examples, are sketchy. The bible refers to God and Adam having conversations and there is the moment of God's passing his glory over a covered up Moses. And we can assume that there would be no mediator, not even angelic between Jesus and his prayers to his father. But otherwise, we usually assume that God always uses a messenger, usually an angel as a go between. Even when the scriptures refer to meetings between a man and God "face to face" or talking with Jehovah (as in the Abrahamic passages) this is referring to the person talking with God's angelic representative whether that representative is materialized or not.

    Obviously, we can disprove the assertion above/presumption in your post by simply referring to a few example of God dealing ("directly" -but actually through his messenger) with imperfect sinners: 1) God dealing with Adam/Eve after their sin; 2) God dealing with Cain after he murdered Abel; 3) God empowering Samson after he sinned (many times); 4) God blessing/dealing with David after he sinned with Bathsheba, etc. etc.

    (Maybe "dealing" with is a little too vague of a term for you to be using.)

    The point is that God DOES deal with imperfect sinners. That he does so is the WHOLE POINT OF THE WHOLE BIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE ISN'T IT?

    If God was above dealing with imperfect sinners than he would have no connection with mankind in the first place. So your basic presumption is false.

    With regard to Satan entering before God there are a couple of things to keep in mind. Being in Heaven simply means being in the spiritual realm, i.e. not within the physical universe. More specifically it refers to that part of the spiritual realm wherein God hangs out (although not being physical or having any dimension you understand I am just being metaphorical).

    So to come before God in Heaven just meant essentiallly to be in (spiritual-space) proximity to God.

    But there is a second aspect to being in Heaven and that is to actually receive the "light" or blessing/favour that emanates from Jehovah God to ones in heaven, the angelic host.

    The Bible indicates that some of the angels, those that sinned by taking material form and having relations with the daughters of men, (and maybe others that have likewise "fallen") are existing in a state which is called "tartarus." This means that although these are in the spiritual realm they do not receive the "light" of God and so in fact they are in "darkness," again metaphorically speaking.

    Thus it is not only possible but also likely that the one called Satan was also in the same state when he entered before Jehovah God as related in the book of Job and in fact has probably been in that situation since he "turned."

    Witnesses believe that for a time, until 1914 to be specifici, that both Satan and these other fallen angels, also referred to as demons, could freely travel "about" the whole spirit realm, including coming into the "proximate zone" of being close to Jah (aka "Heaven"). But after Michael/Jesus' war, these ones are no longer permitted to come near Jehovah God at all, i.e. are no longer permitted into "Heaven" but in fact are now restricted to a very limited "area" of the spiritual plane which coincides with the physical location of our planet Earth.

    -Eduardo

  • Golf
    Golf

    Oro21, I read your thoughts, now, can you answer the questions I posed? The first human pair were denied access to the garden, thrown out, and supposedly Satan and his cohorts were thrown out of heaven in 1914. Why one and not the other? One was immdediately removed and other it took millenniums. I guess we have to use hypothetical language to make a measure of sense to this dilemma.


    Golf

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    Perhaps we need to wonder if it matters. Jesus, (God in the flesh) (If you have seen me you have seen my father) Was and Is the One who we believe in for everlasting life.. simple faith plus nothing equal salvation. A gift we cannot earn. All the rest of what we do would be out of appreciation for the gift, not earnings, not works that God owes us for ... Jesus said he would draw all sorts of men to him.. He said abide in me and I will abide in you. Religion has complicated the whole issue.. WE sinned , We need Salvation, Jesus is that Salvation.. Believe and our Sins are forgiven.. WHen He comes will He really find the Faith on the earth? Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!

    Some people just don't understand (JW's and other cults) what "Gift" means. Something we receive Something we can not acheive.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    "Something ain't addin up."

    When we blindly believe that a limited-deity gave birth to the un-limited expression of Life and universe, it is impossible for anything to, add up. We can't squeeze truth out of a lie, no matter how hard we try.


    j

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