The Trinity!

by ((Omega)) 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ((Omega))
    ((Omega))

    I have done some research on the Truth regarding the Godhead and who the God of the Bible Truly is. I have studied all the denominations of Christianity, those who deny the deity of Christ, and those who don't, those who believe in a Trinity and those who do not. After years upon years of diligent studies I have concluded:

    The Deity Of Christ :
    John 8:58 - Jesus{Iesous}said{epo}unto them{autos}, Verily{amen}, verily{amen}, I say{lego} unto you{humen}, Before{prin}Abraham{Abraam}was{ginomai}, I{ego}am{eimi}.

    In this immediate context the Jews are not asking Jesus who He is. Rather, they are questioning (HOW OLD) He is. Jesus had made the point that Abraham had seen His (Christ's) "day." They responded by saying, "You are not yet 50 years old, and have You seen Abraham?" That is, "Abraham lived 1800 years ago, and you are not even 50. So, how is it possible for Abraham to have seen your 'day'?" The question, then, involves age--Christ's age. How long Jesus has been around. In fact, Christ shows us this by starting his statement with the Adverb "before": "before Abraham was born..." Again, Jesus here is talking about length of TIME. "Before Abraham was born, I AM." Before Abraham was born, Christ was existing and continues to exist (the very trait of God described in Exod. 3:14).
    In fact, the Jews' response to this statement also shows that Jesus described Himself with a term of deity: they tried to stone Him to death for blasphemy (which would have been the case if Christ had been a mere human).John 10:30-31 specifically states this reason for them trying to stone Jesus. the Jews challenged Jesus along these lines. But, again, in the immediate context of John 8:58, the question is not about greatness, but about just how long Christ had been around...and He clearly said that He had been around even before Abraham...which is exactly what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying, too. To repeat, the question was not "Who?" (answered by "I am He"), but the question was "How long?" (answered by "I EVER EXIST", and so existed before Abraham).

    John 1:1 - In{en}the beginning{arche}was{en}the Word{logos}, and{kai}the Word{logos} was{en}with{pros}God{theos}, and{kai}the Word{logos was{en}God{logos}.

    Distinction of Christ from His Father:
    John 6:38 - For{hoti}I came down{katabaino}from{ek}heaven{ouranos}, not{ou}to{hina} do{poieo} mine own{emos}will{thelema}, but{alla}the will{thelema}of him that sent{pempo} me{me}.

    John 8:17 - {kai}It is{grapho also{de}written{grapho in{en} your{humeteros}law{nomos}, that{hoti}the testimony{marturia}of two{duo}men{anthropos}is{esti}true{alethes}.

    If Jesus and the Father are the same person, then Jesus would be bearing witness of HIMSELF, therefore His testimony would not be True, and as we know that Jesus is incapable of lying, neither is any deceit found in Him.

    John 5:31 - If{ean}I{ego}bear witness{martureo}of{peri}myself{emautou}, my{mou} witness{marturia}is{esti}not{ou}true{alethes}.

    John 17:24 - Father{pater}, I will{thelo}that{hina}they also{kakeinos}, whom{hos}thou hast given{didomi}me{moi}, be{o}with{meta}me{emou}where{hopou} I{ego}am{eimi}; that{hina}they may behold{theoreo}my{emos} glory{doxa}, which{hos}thou hast given{didomi}me{moi}: for{hoti}thou lovedst{agapao}me{me}before{pro}the foundation{katabole}of the world{kosmos}.

    If the Father became the Son at the incarnation, then then it would be in direct conflict with the above verse that teaches that the Son had shared both the Love and Glory with His Father before the foundation or creation of the Word and before the incarnation.

    We find in the New Testament that Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" more than 200 times and He is never even once called the "Father." The Father? is referred to as someone else who is clearly distinct from Jesus by Jesus. Furthemore it is found that Jesus referred to "the Father" or "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself over 179 times, you will not once find any scriptures where Jesus refer to "my Son" as distinct from himself! Even furthermore in the Gospel of John alone, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," over 40 times and He never once referred to himself as the Father who had sent the Son.
    On another note, Jesus did not say that He "is" the Father, but rather that He and the Father "are" one.{ego kai ho pater hen esmen} which is rendered literally as "I and the Father one we are" The verb esmen (are) is plural in the Greek, for this reason, Jesus didn?t say, "I and the Father am{eimi} one," but rather He said that, "I and the Father are{esmen}one."
    Now an examination of the word "ONE" When translated the word "one"{hen} is in the neuter gender. In the greek the neuter{hen}is indicating a UNITY of essence and not an absolute identity. Think of it this way, if Jesus wanted to communicate that He Himself was the Father, then He would certainly would have used the masculine{heis} not one person, but of one essence or nature.

    When Jesus said that if you see Him then you see the Father can be explained: As God, the Son in His pre-existence was always {hos on} or "who being" the prefect and "exact representation" or{charakter} of the very Person {hupostaseos} of Him{autou} and not as Him; Hebrews. 1:3. So when you see Jesus, you "see" {as the only way to and in exact representation} the invisible unseen Father.

    The God-Breathed Scriptures teach that God is "ONE" {echad},{heis} in Unity and is ONE BEING that is manifested as three eternal persons.

    God Bless!

  • MerryMagdalene
    MerryMagdalene

    Welcome, ((Omega)),

    I hope you enjoy being part of the JWD forum!

    ~Merry

  • Robert K Stock
    Robert K Stock

    ((Omega))

    During your years of study have you reached a conclusion on how something that cannot be measured or tested with repeatable results exists?

    For years I just accepted that God existed. When I applied the scientific method I discovered that God and all supernatural beings do not exist.

    Cool avatar.

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Welcome Omega !!!!!

    You may find "New Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell an interesting read.

    I never believed in a Trinity or Triune composed of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit until I exited the WTBTS and really began researching the evidence for and against such an absurd thing.

    After consideration of secular and biblical sources I no longer can discount that a Triune exists in heaven. I should have immediately recognised this from the scripture in Matthew 28 when Jesus said to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Also, contrary to the WTBTS's view that the angels would have wondered what kind of God they served if He had immediately destroyed Adam, Eva and Satan, how much more incensed they would have been had God been the only judge in the case. Hence, three judges make better than one in making an historic ruling.

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    One thing that EX jws who become christians need to be careful with, is feeling that because they have opposed the trinity for so long, now that they are a christian they must accept it.

    Here is a quick lesson in Christology:

    Christology

    The belief that Jesus is not God, according to sectarians like Jehovah's Witness, Unitarians, or even mainstream evangelicals who have been snared up by this heretical rejection of Christ, are not aware that their apostasy is in complete alignment with "ethical relativism."

    First lets examine the Christologies (study of the nature of Jesus Christ)

    Modalism - (Modalistic Monarchianism or Sabellianism) The belief that God is one, this one God has revealed Himself to mankind through various manifestations or modes, the manifestation (role) of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. God has the ability to reveal Himself in different forms to His creation and at different times. I do not see how this can be interpreted as Polytheism, this Christology fits accordingly with the basic rules that interpret monotheism (belief in one God).

    Oneness - Basic monarchianist modalism .

    Trinitarianism - (Athanasianism) - probably the most popular but certainly not truthful, it believes that God is three seperate persons, God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. I can't help but believeing this to be pure pagan polytheism (belief in multiple gods).

    Arianism of Arius - (Jehovah's Witness and Unitarian) The Christological views of Arius (280?-336), a priest at Alexandria. Arius held that there is only one God, and that the Son or Logos is a divine being like God but created by God. Thus, Jesus was a demigod. This view came very close to sweeping Christendom in the fourth century, but was condemned at the Council of Nicea in 325 and again at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

    Subordinationism - Belief that one person in the Godhead is subordinate to or was created by another person in the Godhead. Of course this presupposes a belief in the plurality of persons in the Godhead (polytheism). In early Trinitarians, it surfaced as the belief that the Logos is the divine Son and is subordinate to the Father. This was the view of some Greek apologists, Tertullian, and Origen. Arianism is an extreme development of this doctrine (Jehovah's Witness and Unitarian). Also, the term applies to any belief that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father or the Son. Orthodox Trinitarians is expressed by the Nicene and Athanasian creeds theoretically rejects and form of subordinationism, but the tendency towards it remains. (Most of today's Trinitarians view Christ as subordinate to the Father, thus neo-Trinitarians contains the subordination doctrine.

    Obviously, you can believe Jesus is God, without being a Trinitarian, so the whole argument that anti-Jesusists use is, oh your're one of those pagan Trinitarians. WRONG! Trnitarianism is pagan, but I'm not one of them, and Jesus is still God.

    It is this authors opinion that Modalistic Monarchianism or Oneness, is the correct view of the nature of Jesus Christ, and all others are heresy. Trinitarianism is pagan Constantinian-tritheism (polytheism) while arianism is based in the gnostic-platonic-judeo-masonic view that God can not become a man.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    One thing that EX jws who become christians need to be careful with, is feeling that because they have opposed the trinity for so long, now that they are a christian they must accept it.

    It's amazing that the JW's themselves do not believe in monotheisim.

    John 1:1 (NWT)

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    Basically i look at it this way. If a religion denies that the Creator became a man or that the Creator is not one, they are antichrist and deceived.

    JWs deny God can become a man, and Trinitarians deny that the creator is one.

  • Robert K Stock
    Robert K Stock

    The biggest deception is that any creator exists.

    The physical universe is all there is.

    No spirits, no souls, no god, no devil, no angels, no demons.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Hear Oh Israel The Lord Our God is Tree in One Gods - this Arian controversy rears its ugly head on this board about once every three months - but welcome to the board

  • ((Omega))
    ((Omega))

    First of all, Ianones lesson in Christology is not a lesson at all, you have not disproved anything but immediately called it heresy, when modalism is the doctrine that denies biblical truth. The word heresy literally means to choose ones own opinions. I have presented that God is not one person but is manifested as three eternal persons. I challenge you "Ianone" to disprove the trinitarian doctrine, I have clearly presented biblical truth that is irrefutably pointing to the distinction of the Son from the Father and that the Son is deity. Unless you can refute me, you are immediately disregarding what scriptures clearly teach. So ianone, do you see any distinction between the Son and the Father and the Holy Ghost within these verses, or do you care to ingore it all.

    Nevertheless (I) tell (you) the truth; It is expedient for (you) that (I) go away: for if(I) go not away, (the Comforter) will not come unto (you); but if (I) depart, (I) will send (him) unto (you). And when (he) is come, (he) will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment Of sin, because they believe not on (me); Of righteousness, because (I) go to my (Father), and (ye) see (me) no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (I) have yet many things to say unto (you), but (ye) cannot bear them now. Howbeit when (he), the Spirit of truth, is come, (he) will guide (you) into all truth: for (he) shall not speak of (himself); but whatsoever (he) shall hear, that shall (he) speak: and (he) will shew (you) things to come. (He) shall glorify (me): for (he) shall receive of (mine), and shall shew it unto (you). All things that the (Father) hath are (mine): therefore said (I), that (he) shall take of (mine), and shall shew it unto (you). (John 16:7-15)

    And to stillajwexelder, the word for one as I have pointed out is "echad" which is used to describe One in Unity, example:

    • 1 Corinthians 6:16 - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one{heis}flesh.
    • 1 Corinthians 10:17 - For we being many are one{heis]bread, and one{heis}body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
    • John 11:52 - And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one{heis} the children of God that were scattered abroad.
    • Acts 23:6 - But when Paul perceived that the one{heis}part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
    • Acts 28:25 - And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one{heis}word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,PAUL SPOKE JUST ONE WORD?
    • Romans 12:4 - For as we have many members in one{heis}body, and all members have not the same office: and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
    • 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one{heis}Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one{heis}Spirit. SPIRIT OF TRUTH!
    • 1 Corinthians 12:14 - For the body is not one{heis}member, but many.

    The word for one is used clearly within all these verses to describe ONE in Unity not singularity, if your heart permits you to see such.

    So Ianone, are you going to make an effort in refuting what I have posted in regards to the distinction of Christ from the Father?

    I await...... ...

    God Bless!

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit