Translation of Governing body and their 'spirit directed organisation' = Spiritual Drunkards
"We only believe what the Bible says" or Help Refute a Common JW Claim
by Check_Your_Premises 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Caveat
Premises:
Some of the posts here are taking the same approach: Make her prove her point. In other words ?the burden of proof?. For that to be effective you have to show her something in return, a reward so to speak. I know it sounds funny but YOU have to be the bait. No sincere JW will back out of the opportunity to save their unbelieving spouse. If you perhaps tell her you will fully convert (baptize) if she was to somehow prove the point of believing the GB because all they say is based on scriptures, you will be placing the burden appropriately on her shoulders.
Then and only then, when she feels the need to prove these things to you, you may have some daylight to maneuver around all the preemptive strikes the JW have landed already.
Then, all these things that are obvious contradictions can be pointed out without the ?run for your life? alarm going off on her head (it will sound alright but cross your fingers that not loud enough).
Perhaps a stretch will be to let her know implicitly that this is the time to get you in, otherwise she will never get you. That for you, it?s got to be a logical/reasonable decision and you will not do it just because your wife is in. Let her know the importance of proving these things to you NOW (and always to prove them to YOU and not to HER, the latter being obviously you intention). This is a stretch and perhaps should be used as a last reasonable resource.
Lastly I like to tell you that you are in a most favorable position to counteract all the hard labor the psychology gurus have been dumping on her mind. Most of us didn?t learn about these things until years of indoctrination and are now way past the time where love for the spouse has taken a backseat to love of the Org.
This is an ?all or nothing? battle since by reading this site you may have a glimpse of how life can become after JWism.
Best of Wishes
Caveat
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Sunspot
Since you can't appeal to her through all the faulty doctrines---how about trying to discuss the questions she will be asked at the baptism?
The WTS claims that they do everything from the bible. They claim that Jesus is their "leader".
Jesus clearly and expressly said "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit." Matt. 28:19
These are the questions asked of the baptismal candidates;
*** Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
Decision Based on Knowledge
[?]
At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ's example. The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.
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Take a good look at these and ask yourself if these cleverly worded questions have any connection at ALL with what Jesus himself commanded to be said? (sorry for the change in font--I don't know how to change it back!)
Don't these "questions" appear somewhat deceptive, trying to appear to be (weakly) following what Jesus said, but not really doing so.
Why the change in how Jesus said to do it? Weren't Jesus words simple enough? WHY does the WTS feel the need to add their OWN twist to something as important as this?
You have some time to mull this over and figure out how to present this to your wife in a way that will be comfortable to you.
Wishing you the best,
Annie
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BluesBrother
How likely is it that no single JW, ever has found a teaching to be logically weak, or confusing, or even open to other interpretations. I find it more likely that because a given questionable teaching comes from the specially chosen servant of the Ultimate Authority, they suspend their reason and simply accept it.
How very true ! The fact is that once one is within the flock, you just accept what you are told to believe. "the Governing Body know best" is the maxim to follow. I still get the flack for not following anymore "Who are you, to say you know more than the Governing Body" I get scolded.
A favourite line is that "Everything we teach is in the Bible". Ray Franz commented that he had come to realise that very little was clearly and unaquivocably taken from scripture. Largely this is the basic Christianity shared with any church group. Anything else is the product of their unique "Reasoning on the Scriptures"
We have seen in this thread some great examples of old stuff they used to say. Was Holy Spirit directing them to say that? I can accept the individual mistakes of any man, Gov Body or not, just as Peter and Moses made mistakes. But those men never led Gods people the wrong way, they just made mistakes of personal judgement in own lives. I do not think that they can be used as examples for the gross error sometimes taught by the WTS
Good luck with your wife . With a partner such as yourself she has a good chance of seeing sense
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Check_Your_Premises
You can get a lot of info from Don Cameron's book "Captives of a Concept"
I have read this book. I talk to Don regularly. He has given me plenty of advice, which is important. I have a difficult time knowing how to approach many of these subjects just because I never really bought into any of it. It is hard for me to view the world as a JW does.
I recommend this book to everyone.
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Check_Your_Premises
Well, I must say that I found it quite alarming that someone so obviously well informed and logical could not dissuade his wife from getting mixed up with this. But now I see that the influence and indoctrination has really set in before you could intervene. It's kind of like she's already taken the full commitment in her mind and now she's just going through the formality. I really will pray for you. Thanks for yours. You definitely seem to be well equipped. Please check your Inbox...
Yes she has made up her mind. I am like a person standing against a tsunami. I really didn't address these issues soon enough. I can only say that I too found much that they had to say intriguing. I think for me the real appeal of the org was that they really do take their faith seriously. So many times I saw people who simply took the scriptures they thought were convenient for them and ignore the rest. The JW's have taken some very inconvenient doctrines. YOu could question the GB follower's reasoning, but not their committment. I guess I also like the fact that they take spreading the word so seriously. Again, I knew so many Christians that would never have the balls to knock on someone's door and tell them about their faith. You could question these methods, but not their committment. See, for me, I didn't really believe in God, so it was all theoretical. The very first meeting I went to after I decided I believed in God was where I had an epiphany. They were bragging about how great they were and it suddenly became so offensive to me. How the hell could they presume to know that God had chosen them?! At that point I read COC, and found Captives of a Concept. I have been doing a lot of thinking on my own as well. I will have more to say in the coming weeks. But my wife is only now, after three years, getting some challenges to her beliefs. For three years now she has lived in an echo chamber. And before that she had studied with a few other religions and pretty much decided that she thought the JW's were "the right one" before she started studying with the JW's. She wants to believe they are the "right religion". How do you overcome that!?
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Check_Your_Premises
Perhaps a stretch will be to let her know implicitly that this is the time to get you in, otherwise she will never get you. That for you, it?s got to be a logical/reasonable decision and you will not do it just because your wife is in. Let her know the importance of proving these things to you NOW
Are you saying I should do this now, as a way to keep her from getting baptized? Intersting thoughts on making myself bait. Thanks.
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Check_Your_Premises
What about this for strategery for a short term solution?
I could lovingly tell her I think her GB is a bunch of liars (openly oppose), and then tell her I want to teach the children the truth I know about the organization.
She won't just sit there and let me lead the children astray? She will want to be right there to contradict, unsuccessfully everything I say. In the course of doing so she will be forced to listen to various apostate type opposing arguments.
Thoughts?
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IT Support
Hi C_Y_P,
How about suggesting to your wife that she postpones her baptism? This would give you some 'breathing space' to discuss things together.
You might suggest to her that this is a very serious step she's contemplating, and as a married couple, you've always tried to do things together. You wouldn't like her to get baptised alone, wouldn't it be better if you could both get baptised together? So could she consider postponing her baptism and instead spend the next six months (until the next circuit assembly) convincing you that she has the truth? If you are convinced, you will get baptised with her.
Of couse, you can arm yourself with all the proofs of WT errors which will easily refute her arguments...
Just a suggestion--it may buy you some time.