Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious 111 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow

    @Nitty-Gritty:

    (I apologize if this post is off-topic - I want to address the comment you made about the WTS' advice given to parents)


    What I find odd, is that rarely do these articles address the obvious first line of defense: the dynamics between a (good) parent and a child, (mutual trust and open communication) and the education of the child as to “bad touch” “good touch” (even from parents), etc. In my opinion the various Awake articles and other WT publications have produced excellent advice as to this first line of defense. Just my observation…..

    "Excellent advice?" I think the Watchtower 'advice' avoids the elephant in the room. What happens when the abuser is the parent, which is often the case in closed communities that practice extreme sexual prohibitions? 

    Here are some observations (taken from personal stories on the Silent Lambs website) to add to your 'observation', Nitty-Gritty.  


    I was sexually abused by my father who was a witness from the time I was a toddler up until I was about 9 or 10 years old.


    And then, when I was about eight years old, my father started coming into our room, the kids’ room, late at night after he’d got home from work and my mother was sleeping with the TV on. ...


    My dad took me into the shower with him when I was only eight or nine years old and he made me do crazy things.

    And I was held down and raped by my father, the man of God, the head of the family who was supposed to protect me and love me and be good to me, on several occasions. It was a nightmare.

    I found out that my father, the service overseer, had molested my sister (half-sister) many years ago.

    my poor older sister was subject to sexual abuse from my father 
    I, like so many others was abused by my step-father (who was also an elder in our congregation).

    I was sexually abused by my father when I was young. .. My father has since become a well-respected Elder who is often featured at the District Convention and directs the featured Drama.

    My mother, who was an extreme alcoholic, sexually abused at least one of my brothers, and beat them severely...  My mother, who is now 84, is still a witness. She was spoken to once about sexual abuse and she categorically denied it

    As a child my father was a pervert. He never actually touched me but he exposed himself to me and my physical sisters on a regular basis as well as talked and behaved in a sexually perverted way around us.

    I also found out that another uncle's wife was abused from the time she was about 6 until she was engaged by her father, an elder.

    When I was a child I was molested by several family members who are Jehovah's Witnesses (My uncle, brother, and father.)

    My abuse memories start around 3 when my father came home one night drunk.

    on many Sundays after going to the "meetings" my stepfather would molest me that very same day telling me this was to show my Love to not only my father...but the Heavenly father (Jehovah).....

    I was molested by my stepfather at age 11,


    When I finally got the strength to go to the elders they called me and my sisters liars. You see my dad was loved deeply and no one wanted to accept what we were saying about such a great man.

    My daughter was molested by her baptized stepfather when she was eight.

    I was not molested by an elder or any member from the congregation, but I was molested by my step father who is a Jehovah Witness.

    I had a good friend who was repeatedly molested by her father (an elder) and her brother. 

    My father was the congregation overseer in 1959 when I was violently raped by him and my grandfather. 

    I was in the "organization" for 31 years and was molested by 2 different elders (one was my father).

     I was abused by my "servant" father when I was a teenager. 

    ... a highly respected elder in our Kingdom Hall was involved in sexually molesting several young girls, including his own daughter.

     The 'excellent advice' given by the Watchtower Society is not as 'excellent' as you may believe - in fact, it may very well create yet another situation for abusive parents to further abuse children.



  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Just for those who aren't quite clued in on why this law suit was filed and its probable outcome, here is a clear explanation by the lawyer who handled the case.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzA1wYqiFnE#t=233

     

  • Nitty-Gritty
    Nitty-Gritty

    @OrphanCrow

    Awake! 1993-10-08 “Prevention in the home...... It is not  the stranger in a trench coat, the loner lurking in the bushes, who poses the greatest threat to children. It is a member of the family. The vast majority of sexual abuse occurs in the home. So how can the home be made more resistant to abuse?.....”

    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g19931008/prevent-child-sexual-abuse/

    Awake! 1981-02-08 Incest—The Hidden Crime

    October 1, 1983, issue of The Watchtower – Help for the victims of incest

    January 22, 1985, issue of Awake -…. “Sadly, much sexual abuse occurs right within the confines of the family. The following article will discuss how you can make your family a safe haven in an abusive world”.

    October 2007 issue of Awake! –“My father was a cold, angry drunk,” Heather says. “He beat me terribly, and he molested me and my sisters.”

    And so on

    http://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=child+abuse

  • Nitty-Gritty
    Nitty-Gritty

    @Separtion of powers

    "as you know the ORG is all that matters to a witness" No, a relationship with God is what matters.

    "you tell them that they should approach the elders for counsel on everything from marital problems to depression" - this was supposed to apply only in as far as it affects a persons spiritual well being. The elders are not and never have been marriage councilors nor psychologists nor doctors and have not claimed to be such, or should not have claimed to be such. Elders who take it upon themselves to act in these capacities are not following counsel.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Oh...!!!  So now it's the fault of the Elders,/Dukes/Stars of Revelation/gifts in men/mature ones for NOT following counsel?? LOL!!!! Counsel from whom??? 

    The Eldubs followed the "code red" perfectly.

    The number one rule: Do not bring reproach upon Jeehoobie's name or the ORG. 

    Oops!!! 


    SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP. That is all....


    DD

  • Nitty-Gritty
    Nitty-Gritty

    @

    DATA-DoG

    Don't get upset. My response was to @Separation of Powers because he/she said that members of a congregation are "told that they should approach the elders for counsel on everything from marital problems to depression". I was saying that Elders are supposed to advise others only as regards spiritual matters in these areas using the Bible. Once they start giving out personal opinions and advice then they are wrong and are going against the instructions in the hand book for elders. I was not necessarily referring to any specific case.

    The meaning of "special relationship" in legal terms I understand is not the same as the "special relationship" you are talking about. I am no lawyer but I understand a "special relationship" to mean that one entity (in this case an elder or body of elders) is responsible for the actions of another entity (in this case a member in the congregation).

    Also you are misunderstanding what is involved in bringing reproach upon JW organization. Anyone acting in contrary to the Bible brings reproach on the organization, naturally. But it has never been the policy to hide the fact that there are some who live contrary to the Bible, and most JWs are well aware that there are individuals who do act contrary to the Bible and those are usually disfellowshipped when found out, unless genuinely repentant. People on the outside are also made aware of this as the magazines are distributed to the public also. The WT 1986/1/1 page 13 says this: "Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality". 

    The thing is, these people remain anonymous for the most part. We do not have a list of names of all those who have committed these crimes and the details there of. But I agree, child molestation IS different.  And this is basically what this case is about. Making public the names of child molesters so that members of the congregation can avoid them....

    P.S. The kind of reproach in the sense you are talking about is when one brother takes another brother to court over something which they could have resolved by themselves (this of course does not include criminal actions).



  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

     Since the Elders are NOT experts as you have correctly pointed out, they cannot distinguish between criminal matters and "sin." This is the GB's fault because they are in charge.

    I perfectly understand the issue of reproach, it's the Elders who do not. Sadly, Elders routinely use the "reproach" angle to sweep a myriad of issues under the rug. If the Elders, including COs, are truly going beyond the things written, including official policy, it's the GB's fault. It happened on their watch. 

    As far as the "special relationship" is concerned, we are thinking of the exact thing. The WTBTS/GB is responsible for the actions of the Elders, directly and indirectly.

    The Elders ( including ALL men in the ORG with responsibility) believe that GOD speaks through the ORG/GB. The ORG/GB have failed to properly train the Elders in how to handle cases of abuse, by failing to cooperate with the "Superior Authorities." They also failed to direct CO's and DOs ( before they were canned ) to properly instruct the local Elders. 

    The GB gladly accept the mantle of spiritual Guru/leaders/God's spokesman. They expect complete and unquestioning loyalty to all their directives as God's mouthpiece. If you are an Elder and doubt what I say, just challenge them and see for yourself. Therefore, the GB are responsible for the actions of the Elders, hence the "special relationship".  

    In the case of the Fremont Congregation, Candice was not protected because the Elders obey the GB/ORG, and the ORG must be kept beyond reproach. Were it not for the corporate/legalistic reminders from "Jesus' brothers", the Elders could have made a moral decision without interference from the ORG. The ORG failed the Elders, it failed Candice. The Jury recognized that fact.

    They also recognized that although they were following procedure, the Elders of the Fremont congregation also share responsibility. The jury made a moral and just decision. It's really simple. 

    Because the ORG/GB were either so hell-bent on saving face, or believed that Holy Spirit would somehow work it out, they failed to properly educate the Elders on how to properly handle matters for the long-haul.

     When the Elders decide that withholding the identity of a person with an unhealthy interest in children is a good idea, they rob parent of the ability to protect their children.

    They do this out of a misguided zeal for the ORG/GOD/UNITY/PEACE. This misguided zeal is fostered by the GB's "scriptural" guidelines presented to every BOE in the "Shepherd Book" and official letters. These guidelines are actually orders from "God's mouthpiece", again the "special relationship". This relationship extends to the rank and file because many KNOW/FEEL what they should do, but they obey those taking the lead as Jehovah's shepherds, the Elders. The Elders are obeying the GB. Again, "special relationship."

    When you have a hierarchy that is enforced through disciplinary measures or threats, like losing eternal life, there are consequences. The GB have "taken" the lead. They have no qualms demanding obedience from everyone below them.

    They make it plain that to disobey them, is equal to disobeying God. So when "Jehovah's" will is not clear in the matter of handling pedophiles, the Elders go into default mode, or "what is the current procedure from the GB?"  Sometimes, that means avoiding "reproach on the ORG" by any means necessary. Those methods have often included telling the rank and file to keep quite about pedophiles in the congregation, often threats of disciplinary action are employed. 

    NOTHING happens without the GB's approval. All policy, good or bad, comes from the top and flows downhill. Therefore, the GB are responsible for child abusers remaining in the congregations and going in service.  Again, "special relationship." 

    It was very easy for the jury to make a just and moral decision because they had no agenda. There was no "special relationship" between the jury and the WTBTS. There was no bias, no desire to save face, no misguided zeal. It's not complicated. The jurors, laymen like myself, were able to make a moral decision on their own. 

    Also, just because I laugh at something you say, it doesn't mean I am upset with you. It simply means that I find a particular point laughable or amusing for reasons of my own.



    DD



  • cha ching
    cha ching

    Data-Dog... good connection of the dots...

    Sometimes it is hard to put in words these obscured realities that affect so many lives, especially if one has not been an elder, read the BOE's letters, elder's books, or dealt with "the Society" directly.  

    So many people have not seen what goes on behind 'the curtain.'

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd
    The thing that stands out in my mind is. If your going to keep quiet about pedos, then you better make sure that there are adequate measures in place to stop him re offending in the unsuspecting congregation. Because if he dose then a measure of responsibility lies with those who knowingly chose to keep quiet.
  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    nitty-gritty, hi and welcome

    you said

    @Separtion of powers

    "as you know the ORG is all that matters to a witness" No, a relationship with God is what matters.

    "you tell them that they should approach the elders for counsel on everything from marital problems to depression" - this was supposed to apply only in as far as it affects a persons spiritual well being. The elders are not and never have been marriage councilors nor psychologists nor doctors and have not claimed to be such, or should not have claimed to be such. Elders who take it upon themselves to act in these capacities are not following counsel.

    In order to ensure the welfare of the flock

    would elders then encourage rank and file members to seek out and go see a good marriage counselor, psycologist, psychiatrist etc then?  would they follow up on asking rank and file members if they have been to see their consultant for the problem for which they themselves have no spiritual input?  

    It is more likely that elders will say: so and so is spiritually low and that they need to pray more, do more field service etc etc.  In fact do you know of any witness who has been encouraged to go see a marriage counselor?  I have never heard the society tell people to go see a marriage counselor and then encourage elders to consider the plight the children may be in.  It isn't just that the elders of Fremont congregation were neglectful.  The watchtower society together with the elders, in failing to take even the tiniest steps towards considering Candace's plight and safety, indicate to me that a duty of care towards children undertaking ministry exists, imo, particularly when their parents are in trouble.  Of course the appellate judges may not think so but this is worth fighting for.

    not trying to put you on the spot nitty-gritty and would still like to hear your views


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