Well, I didn't see the movie, but I read quite a lot from and about Luther who remains a fascinating character to me. And I agree that metaphysical fear, fueled by the late middle-ages theology, philosophy (especially nominalism) and piety (via moderna) was an essential part of his cultural and personal background. His greatest finding imo was that he could overcome fear, not by repressing it, but by including it in some ongoing dialectics. Not either reproved or saved (as in Calvin), but semper simul peccator et justus et penitens. In other words, I am the subject of my fear (a reproved sinner) and I am simultaneously someone else (a saved righteous). Good example of how the human logos can step out of its own traps.
Fear!
by LittleToe 114 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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scootergirl
I always liked this Hasidic saying...."If a man carries his own lantern, he need not fear darkness."
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Deputy Dog
Nark
Calvin another fascinating character, I wonder about his fears.
D Dog
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LittleToe
DDog:
I think it's safe to say that Paul and Silas would tell him about the Jesus of the bible...
Certainly not the written one of the NT. It hadn't been compiled at that point. In fact it's unlikely that any of the Gospels had been recorded.
Paul would have been going off of personal testimony and scriptures from the OT that shed light on him (as Paul "felt" enlightened by the Holy Spirit). It's also more than likely that all he had was the scriptures that he had memorised, rather than any "written" word.
Some may suggest that his anger was the cause. Any thoughts?
None. I've not seen the movie yet.
Getting back to the subject of fear, do you think that "fear" that individuals haven't got the right saviour might cause individuals to act in a certain manner?
Didier:That certainly gives some food for thought. Would you say that it revolved around an understanding of Heb.12:6?
Scoot:
Nice quote -
Deputy Dog
LT
Certainly not the written one of the NT. It hadn't been compiled at that point. In fact it's unlikely that any of the Gospels had been recorded.
I'm confused. It looks like you are suggesting that, Paul would say one thing and write another. I think Paul was conserned about himself preaching the one true Jesus and someone else teaching about another, and I believe this still happens today. For instance, I recently had someone say that Jesus sinned right up til he was baptized, I've had others tell about things they feel about Jesus that contradict scripture. Do I take thier word about Jesus or do I take the bible's account?
Paul would have been going off of personal testimony and scriptures from the OT that shed light on him
On this we agree, and I think if Paul was an apostle we should agree that his is the true account.
None. I've not seen the movie yet.
Thats OK, what about just from the general info you have read about his life?
Getting back to the subject of fear, do you think that "fear" that individuals haven't got the right saviour might cause individuals to act in a certain manner?
That's a tuff one for me, I've never had that fear. I look at it this way1Co 15:13-19
But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless. And also we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed as to God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if the dead ones are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is foolish; you are still in your sins. And then those that fell asleep in Christ were lost. If we only have hope in Christ in this life, we are of all men most miserable.Paul doesn't seem to be worried why should I be. If you have something better, that might be good news.
D Dog
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LittleToe
DDog:
Now I fear for you...
LOLI'm confused. It looks like you are suggesting that, Paul would say one thing and write another.
No. He predominantly delivered his teaching orally. Lets be honest, there's precious little in the letters, really, and a chunk of it uses specious reasoning.
I think Paul was conserned about himself preaching the one true Jesus and someone else teaching about another, and I believe this still happens today. For instance, I recently had someone say that Jesus sinned right up til he was baptized, I've had others tell about things they feel about Jesus that contradict scripture. Do I take thier word about Jesus or do I take the bible's account?
How did they stumble upon these positions? Was it by divine revelation, or by speculating a few things in their heads? Even Paul confesses that some of his teaching is his opinion. However I do see your general point.
On this we agree, and I think if Paul was an apostle we should agree that his is the true account.
Something about the way you said that makes me think that your definition of "Apostle" is determined by "seeing" Christ (an extrabiblical teaching that I understand some denominations believe). When did he "see" him, and when was that included in the definition?
Thats OK, what about just from the general info you have read about his life?
He certainly has some "fire". Do you think that was a motivator to help him overcome his fears? How might we apply that today?
That's a tuff one for me, I've never had that fear.... Paul doesn't seem to be worried why should I be. If you have something better, that might be good news
Man, that attitude sux.
"Ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law..."The 1Cor.15 argument only has reasonable rational worth if you have a personal relationship with Christ. If you just read it, as taken, it's worrisome! That's faith in Paul's argument, not faith in Christ!
Sorry, dude, I'm not trying to weaken your faith or anything, but if you come into the viper's nest, expect a bite or two
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BrendaCloutier
Sorry, dude, I'm not trying to weaken your faith or anything, but if you come into the viper's nest, expect a bite or two
Watch out DDog, LT has Rabies! That's enough to put fear into anyone.
Did I stay on thread LT?
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BrendaCloutier
LT back to your acronym for F.E.A.R. I have a couple more for you:
F *k
E verything
A nd
R unor
F ace
E verything
A nd
R ecoverThen there's F.I.N.E. as in I'm fine:
F ouled up
I nsecure
N euortic
E motionalBUT I'M FINE!
None of it easy to do.
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LittleToe
Brenda:
Good acronyms
You make a very valid point, though. It's not necessarily easy at all.Grrrrrrr, now where did ya hide my bones!!!
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Deputy Dog
LT
Now I fear for you...
LOLDon't laugh to hard, but you can pray for me all you want!
Lets be honest, there's precious little in the letters
I've never found them lacking.
Something about the way you said that makes me think that your definition of "Apostle" is determined by "seeing" Christ (an extrabiblical teaching that I understand some denominations believe).
Act 1:22
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.I wouldn't say extrabiblical, But I wouldn't hang my hat on this verse except to say this shows there was a test and it is apparent that he did pass it later on in Acts.
The 1Cor.15 argument only has reasonable rational worth if you have a personal relationship with Christ. If you just read it, as taken, it's worrisome! That's faith in Paul's argument, not faith in Christ!
Wow! Did I give you the impression that I have no relationship? I quoted that passage to say that I have the same confidence as Paul or I agree with him. Not in this passage as evidence. This is after he gives a list of witnesses. But, If you think you have a better way of salvation than Christ's death and resurrection I'm all ears (some people say I'm a hounD Dog) Remember you asked if I feared having the wrong Jesus. If Paul, James Luke and the rest, had the wrong Jesus, then I probably do to.
What is worrisome to me, is that you seem to base your faith on experience, regardless of scripture. I hope I'm wrong. I believe that my experience should be tested by the sciptures.
but if you come into the viper's nest, expect a bite or two
LOL I been bitten by bigger snakes than you! ha! ha! hiss! hiss!
D Dog (Of the I got no class class)