Is Islam a religion of Peace?

by Perry 108 Replies latest social current

• 

  Perry

  Hi Narkissos,

  Digressing even more with you here.

  The impression I get from the NT is that the main point to the "message" of Christ and the apostles was faith in Christ and believing in the resurection as a guarantee of a future life with God. Since Christ was not setting up his kingdom but was will-ing people to live under secular government, many of these social/political issues simply were not covered in detail. It was not his time to start reigning.

  The principles were clearly there though as I pointed out and people stumbled and struggled with them through the centuries. Where secularist's see progress coming from thought free of NT influence, when I read the history honestly and thoroughly I see men's consciences bothered by the influence of the NT providing the impetus for change, especially for the first few centuries. Nothing was smooth though. That's for sure. I am not denegrating secular thought at all, I'm just not willing to ignore clear NT influence on the West either.

  BTTT,

  To deny the impact of the NT on the West is to deny the impact of Mohammed and the Koran on Muslim countries in my opinion. This is the corner that secularists have backed themselves into with their thinking. It's not politically correct, I know. It's the way I see it though.

  I don't see principles of peace, equality, respect for women etc. in the Koran and Mohammed like I do with the NT. Do you? Do you think that secular remedies will be enough to eliminate Islam's prophetic violent expansionism? Murder, rape, slavery, women as chattel? I can't see it. We must think in terms of religion if we are to understand and hopefully lessen this threat.

  Just my opinion.
• 

  Perry

  Hi Simon,

  Good point on the geography.... definitely a factor.

  I realize I am in the minority on this board with some of my analysis and that it may not be considered pc. But we live in pretty weird times so I'll stick my neck out. Read all of my posts before you judge. For every scholar that says one thing there's another that says something else. Sorry about that. That's life. Make up your own mind.

  I must stay off this board for a while to take care of bizness.

  Peace to all and Merry Christmas!!!
• 

  Narkissos

  I don't see principles of peace, equality, respect for women etc. in the Koran and Mohammed like I do with the NT. Do you?

  Sorry, not at all. I don't see domestic, social and political equality for women (or for slaves) in the NT either. I do see principles of peace and theoretical equality which are correlative to the NT's blessed political irresponsibility (which I do enjoy as such). But I can't compare that to the Quran which chooses to be politically responsible (i.e., to structure a complete society with its wars, crime etc.) in the first place. The early Christians could be content to excommuniate its "delinquent" members because it knew there was a civil society around which took charge of the civil order. This is just not the Quran's project.

  Within the same time and country, a school of philosophers with a small group of disciples can teach high and revolutionary ideals, while the civil or penal code of law will appear much more down-to-earth and conservative. Both are useful in their own area. As a reader I would enjoy the former much more, but it would be plain silly to compare them. The NT and the Quran do not belong to the same kind of writings. The latter bears a social and political responsibility which the former doesn't even want to consider.

  Do you think that secular remedies will be enough to eliminate Islam's prophetic violent expansionism?

  I don't know if they will be enough. But if the West understands itself as secular (as most of Europe does) there is just no alternate remedies. Should it revert to a religious self-comprehension it would ipso facto lose what it now stands for.
• 

  MegaDude

  But doesn't the NT lay out the proper God ordained (regardless of religious affialiation or lack thereof) function of Government?

  Doesn't say one bit about being a part of it.

  Wasn't it God's minister to administer justice to the wrongdoer. In other words, it acts as a deterrent to murder for instance. Which is a good thing and leads to stability and prosperity.

  Jesus' solution was simple. Unplug. Put your trust in God.

  While individual Christians were not to shreik back from religious persecution they were naturally allowed to protect themselves.

  Maybe on a personal one to one level, but you'd be hard pressed to find an example of even that in the NT. On a higher political or national level, you're out of luck in the NT. The early Christians were slaughtered like meek sheep in the arenas of Rome.

  Even Jesus apostles carried swords, albeit Peter used his inappropriately and was rebuked.

  As I said, on a personal one to one basis they protected themselves.

  Shouldn't governments protect themselves? Of course they should.

  They all do. Where do you find NT support that Christians pick up the sword to do this? I'm not challenging you. I'm just interested in your thought process here.

  It is a matter of how that is debated. Which is precisely why I asked what the appropriate response should be from civilised nations toward nations that have as their holy worldview that they should slaughter their neighbors.

  What world power hasn't slaughtered people?.

  So far Onacruse's solution is to forget about our Christian heritage and simply say we're bigger than you are; and tough luck we are taking your oil.

  That's exactly what the US is doing. Of course, other countries are exerting their influence in the Middle East for the same reason.

  You're solution seems to be just roll over and take it hard and die as a result.

  The Jews of Jesus time and shortly thereafter who were fed up with being under the cruel domination of the Rome finally rebelled. You know what happened to them. They were Jesus' people. He offered them no political solution nor military solution for their problems. Please cite a NT example of Christians that would do what you're suggesting "civilized nations" should do.

  During World War 2 a German theologian named Bonhoeffer, a pacifist, struggled with what to do with Hitler. He finally became involved with a group of conspirators that tried unsuccessfully to kill Hitler ending with the bomb in his war room that only wounded him. Hitler was enraged and tortured and hung the conspirators with piano wire on butcher hooks. Bonhoeffer ended up being hanged a few days before Hitler shot himself. Would you say God blessed his efforts?

  (Check out the documentary DVD at your local Blockbuster store: "Bonhoeffer")
• 

  Perry

  Narkissos & Megadude,

  I will respond in detail in the next several days.

  Perry
• 

  justhuman

  No it is not and so is George Bush Born Again Christianity. Religion devides
• 

  Abaddon

  Doubtfully

  Islam is a religion of peace as much as the JWs are the true and unique religion of them all.

  But no religion ever practised has resulted in peace. You can make statements knocking Islam all you like, but show me really how Christianity has differed over time.

  NOW social factors mean some Muslims are violent. But if we were all Muslims and the situation and development of societies were reversed, with the Arab world being Christian, then Christians would be violent.

  So religion has nothing to do with it.

  Oh dear, I think Perry has disfellowshipped me... or is this more Borg-like behaviour? Ignoring people who point out the rather gaping holes in your argument and justifying it on some pretext not related to the facts being examined. I love the way Perry 'sticks his neck out' by not defending the clear evidence of bias and selectivity in his attack against Islam. Very brave, and now he's gone.

  Let me speak to the parrot.

  Narkissos

  I actually think Perry knows exactly what he is doing. Same song, different thread, and still the same failure to deal with ommissions and errors in his argumment.

  It's the parrot I worry about.

  Simon

  Yes! But you knew that.
• 

  Midget-Sasquatch

  Perry,

  Thanks for all that historical research on christianity and slavery. (I like the movie Spartacus too). An interesting trend I noticed when going through that and the nice NT scriptures highlighted by Narkissos (my hats off to you too), was that early on there was nothing said against the social institution of slavery, only later on. Some other early christian writings also seem to bear that out.

  You mentioned how its uncertain how the early christians took some of the NT quotes you listed.Here's a passage in The Didache. Its been describes as one of the earliest "church manuals" for Christians.

  Didache 4:10: "do not give orders to your male or female servant - who hope in the same God - out of bitterness, lest they stop fearing the God who is over you both."

  The Letter of Barnabus thats found in the Codex Sinaiticus says just as much in 19:7 but it also has a preceding command to slaves: "Be subject to your masters as a replica of God, with respect and reverntial fear."

  I agree with you that the Quran has several violent and discriminatory passages within it. One has to consider the type of seige mentality that it sprung from and the conditions in which the people who took to it found themselves in. Are secular and sociological change enough? I don't know.

  But I am sure that alot of the reinterpretation and moderation of the quranic verses, has been underway in many portions of Islam for a long time. An example is the command to cut off the hand of a thief. Some have explained it as an allegory to remove the ability of the thief to continue on with that act...which could be done by incarceration alone. So they're addressing the "spiritual" changes that need to be made from within. What the West can do to really help deter militant islam is to address any legitimate greivances they may have about exploitation or abuses of muslim people. They need to work to minimize this perception and any of the reality. Then the militants have less fodder to mobilize the fanatics.
• 

  Perry

  Narkissos & Megadude,

  Sorry I did not reply like I said I would. I got deathly ill with the flu and then played business catch up for a long time. Still doing it.

  Megadude, ... a nice concise explanation of the biblical basis and limitations of warfare can be found in Randall Watters book Refuting Jehovah's Witnesses in the chapter, "War, Evil & Self Defense