Is Islam a religion of Peace?

by Perry 108 Replies latest social current

  • Panda
    Panda

    One point I agree with is that Christ was egalitarian. Not so the Christian church. It's like you are saying " well our slaves are treated better than their slaves...slavery is slavery. In Buddhism you'll find many similarities to what Christ taught only 500 years earlier. So Christianity was not even philosophically new. Even the other stories in both the Koran and Bible are borrowed from older traditions (Assyrian etc) The man-god myth and the "Prophet for god scams" were a blend of old and new. There was no internet to check facts. So if you heard about a godly man from placeX you pass on that information AND mix it in with a little local lore. VOILA new myth or rather revised myth. Islam, Christianity and Judaism were shaped by their respective believers. I think that in Mohammad we get a closer picture to what we should expect from prophets who explain gods laws to us. I mean what sort of person really believes god speaks to the entire world through him? I would also equate Apostle Paul as a like minded individual.

    With Islam it seems to me its like one big middle eastern family against the world. Shoot the house of Saud owns the wealth of the Arab world. Of course the situation has been changing there too. Way too many relatives to share from the golden pot these days. Which explains the number of Saudis involved in the TC and Pentagon Attacks... "you have it all and we don't, we thought we did but we don't" jealousy, and covetousness all of which may be equalized through violence. Violence towards other nations or your wife, niece or sister. Any religion which requires half of it's population to remain ignorant and hidden and abused is not peaceful.

    You mention Romans and Greeks and Assyrians... How about the Etruscans? The women were free. Not partially but wholey free. They owned their own property, didn't belong to anyone, and never wore veils. The women of Mongolia also owned property and rode horses and didn't wear veils (but they do have some really cool hats). Early northern and eastern European women set community standards.

    BTW the Greeks, Romans and Assyrians while pantheistic were also patriarchal worshippers which puts them into the same category as the Muslims, Christians and Jews.

    BTW that whole sequestering of the women came about because the men wanted to be assured of the paternaty of the offspring. You would always know who your mother was, but a father? Who knew? So jealousy in the claiming of children as her own lead men to find the only way they knew how to be 99% certain if the kid was their own... violence towards women.

    One more highly personal comment you made about my making cultish statements... ouch that hurt!

  • Perry
    Perry
    One more highly personal comment you made about my making cultish statements... ouch that hurt!

    Hi Panda,

    I am so sorry if that hit a nerve. I didn't mean that in a bad way. Please forgive me. My point was that here in the West we at least had a foundation of an egalitarian and non-violent leader even if people screwed it all up most of the time. Islam has no such foundation. Somehow I think that the solution, if it is to be a non-violent one, will be related to Moslims finding a religious solution or non violent religious anchor somehow. I can't see them just jumping into another religion or to modern ethics. Just trying to be practical here.

    You comment on the house of Saud is spot on too.

  • bigboi
    bigboi
    Why do you think that nations where Christianity took root prospered materially and nations where Islam took root seemed to not progress commercially?

    Although the question was not directed towards me, I'd like to offer a possible reason for this outcome. Imo, the West's prosperity is a direct consequence of the Christian belief drawn from the old testament of the right of Christian rulers to subdue the earth. This doctrine was responsible for an almost 500 year long period of colonization and almost uninterrupted conflict between the western powers. This also fueled numerous technological advances that left the most of the world and it's resources in the hands of just a few Western nations. This world domination was accomplished through the old-fashioned and very un-Christlike use of violent, brutal force to subdue the populations of the world. IMO, the deeds of Islamic terrorist organizations horrible as they are pale in comparison to what was unleahed on the world by the Chrsitian powers.

  • Panda
    Panda

    BigBoi, You seem to be a lover of history. And The European colonization of the world was not done for altruistic purposes. You made me think about the BlackHole in Calcutta India. Brutal. And the treatment of African tribes IN Africa by Europeans. In East Africa (Kenya and north) many were Muslims who were previously enslaved by other muslims. And it's probably good to remember the few hundred years of Muslim domination of Spain. The Ottoman Empire was huge and violent towards non-believers. Vlad the Impaler (who Dracula was loosely based on) fought against the Ottomans. The Crusades were lost to the Europeans and won by the Muslims. The brutality great on both sides. And that brutality included horrific torturous deaths. Then there was the English war against Scotland. And the Brits were beasts. Before that the northern Europeans known as Vikings constantly raided , raped and slaughtered the male British Islanders... but leaving the seed for red hair and freckles to mix with the roman genes for glorious hair and singing voices. Which isn't so bad now since there aren't many prettier people than the Irish.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Perry

    I await your snappy and well-researched reply to the point I raise with interest, in the meantime;

    in 374 AD Emperor Valentinian I (a Christian) abolished the 1000 year old law of patri potestas.

    Good for him!

    However, the concepts of "husband's absolute rule" and of arranged marriages (with or without a dowry) did NOT become extinct.

    They were practiced by Christians for centuries, even the past few hundred years.

    Like I say, you are not entitled to your own facts. Making such a blatant misrepresentation of historical events devalues any validity in the argument you make.

    *plays Radiohead's 'Just' in the background*

    It is so easy to paint a zebra if all you have is black and white paint Perry; here's some colour;

    Insightful comments by Iranian women about the laws passed since the revolution, in a discussion about womens place and rights in Iranian society;

    "If you know your history Iran is the only non-Arab country in the middle east, and these new laws have taken place since 1979! Thses are laws forced by low class, non-educated people onto the same kind. My dear Iran was never a religious country before 1979! we have more then 5000 years of history and you are brining up the last 30!"

    "You have listed legislations passed in Iran that on the face of it promotes inequality. Yet, you've failed to mention that most of them are rarely practiced. Neither me, my family (& it is a big family) know men to have more than the 1 wife, all married women i know can freely leave the house without husbands marching to court and if you look at the streets of Iran lately you'll see women with scarves barely covering half of their head."

    http://www.enetation.co.uk/comments.php?user=fatema&commentid=106769974929248935

    Seems just as Christian fail to practice what has been preached about sexual equality by their priests etc., so too do Muslims fail to practice what their priests preach about sexual inequality.

    Wow, so, that's a bit like Paul saying those (in this case Muslims) who do what they should do when they don't know they should be doing it show how right what they should do is. It also shows that many Christians have conformed more closely to Jesus words to the Pharisees than to living like him.

    Golly, could that mean people are more-or-less the same, in terms of good and bad, no matter what religion they are a member of?

    And your idea that Jesus was a revolutionary change in the treatment of women;

    Under the code of Hammurabi;

    • Marriage was monogamous, though allowance was made for childless women.
    • A husband had to support a sick wife unless she preferred to return to her father in which case she took her dowry.

      A husband was responsible for his wife's debts.
    • A husband could freely divorce his wife but had to return the dowry and the wife had custody of the children who had to be maintained out of the husband's estate.
    • In Egypt, into Ptolemaic times, households were the legal property of the wife according to the marriage contract, and she had to be respected within the home.
    • A widow took the husbands place and property but held it in trust for the children even if she remarried. If she did not remarry, she had an equal portion with the children when they were adults together with the return of her dowry.
    • Women were judges, elders, witnesses and scribes. Women under Christianity have only just aspired to such positions after 1700 years [apart from a brief period in the 1st C] Remember, Hammurabi was 1700 years before that.

    http://www.adelphiasophism.com/goddess/gs19.html#antiquity

    Loads of information here about women in prehistory;

    http://womenshistory.about.com/cs/ancient/tp/aatpprehistory.htm

    There's a school of thought that holds the most ancient religions were goddess-centered and early societies had matriarchal structures; many cultures till practicing pre-Christian beliefs have power-balancing measures in their cultures to make the sexes equally powerful in society. Others have allowed women to take traditional male roles (and even females to take traditional female roles).

    Here's a list that shows extensive involvement by women as teachers and masters in Eastern religions, some being well before Jesus;

    http://womenshistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwomensearlyart.net%2Fimmortals%2Fmasters.html

    A "heart warming" story about Hypatia, a female scholar in the 5thC who was killed by a misogynistic bishop's mob who ripped her body to pieces; obviously she being a respected pagan scholar AND a women was a bit much for their concepts of equality.

    http://womenshistory.about.com/library/bio/blbio_hypatia.htm

    So essentially at every point you try to portray Christianity as a religion which reliably delivered equality to women, it can be shown that other non-Christian societies could do the same, or that Christian society often didn't live up to its aims.

    In other words, Christianity has been no better or worse than many other religions in its treatment of women.

    Your opinion might differ, but the facts don't support your opinion, unless you ignore most of them...

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Wouldn't that prescription just be a return to the athiestic barbarism and genocides of the last century?

    I had to respond to this labeling. Atheism in itself does not produce violence. Worship of a violent or sectarian God often does. Worship of the isolated nationalistic State also often does. Choosing not to worship does not.

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    Yeah... right!!!

    Islam is a religion of peace as much as the JWs are the true and unique religion of them all.

    DY

  • Perry
    Perry
    if one were to go by the NT, then none of the Pauline corpus speaks against slavery.

    Hi Midget-Sasquatch,

    There are actually 4 interesting scriptures in the NT were Paul mention's slavery:

    Philemon:

    Paul regarding his slave friend Onesimous:

    14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for good? 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord.

    Paul's request was to free this slave and to no longer treat him as a slave but as a dear brother. He also told the Galatians that from a Christian perspective there was neither slave nor free... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. In Corithians he lumped everybody together in "one body" .... slave or free - 12:13.

    In colossians 3: 11 -

    11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

    To put how radical these statements might have seemed at the time. Greece ended up with about a 75% slave population and Rome had a more than 50% slave population. So, it was probably in the minds of citizens an absolute pre-requisite for civilization.

    As a poor analogy, it might be like trying to tell someone today that we should abolish all trucks. We'll just need to get along with cars only. Think of the commercial losses that would cause. One could easily imagine the financial collapse of a system.

    Aristotle called the institution of slavery , "natural" and "expedient" and "just". He said, "a slave is a living tool, just as a tool is a living slave, therefore there can be no friendship with a slave as slave".- Nichomachean Ethics 8:11 So, the practice was deeply engrained culturally, ethically, and financially and had been so for a very, very long time.

    How many early Christians took Paul's seeds of abolition that he planted and grew them? We'll probably never know exactly. There were many though that understood Paul's words as being that slavery was incompatible with Christianity. Historian W. E. H Lecky says,

    "St Melania was said to have emancipated 8000 slaves; St Ovidius a rich martyr of Gaul, 5000; Cromatius a Roman Prefect under Diocletian, 1400; Hermes a Prefect under Trajan 1200, [And] many of the Christian clergy at Hippo under the rule of St. Augistine, as well as great numbers of private individuals, freed their slaves as an act of piety". I'm sure they thought they were just being obedient.

    I think it took courage for early Christians to free slaves because as Alvin Schmidt notes, "Roman edicts did not favor freeing slaves". This is understandable because there were some pretty big slave revolts at times in Roman history, Spartacus being my favorite. Nice movie renter for the holidays btw.

    In 315 Constantine imposed the death penalty on those that stole children to bring them up as slaves. Justinian, 527 - 565 AD abolished all laws that prevented the freeing of slaves to officialize what his fellow Christians had already been doing for a long time. Lactantius (the Christian Cicero) in his Divine Institutes said that in God's eyes there were no slaves. St. Augustine saw slavery as the product of sin and as contrary to God's divine plan - The City of God 19:15. St. Chrysostom in the 300's preached that when Christ came he annulled slavery. "Buy them, and after you have taught them some skill by which they can maintain themselves, set them free" . For five centuries the Trinitarian monks redeemed Christian slaves from servitude in Muslim occupied Spain. Lecky says that "in the thirteenth century there were no slaves to emancipate in France" and that in previous times there were "multitudes of them [slaves] embracing Christianity.

    Church Historian Herbert Workman has shown that early Christians truly saw slaves as their brothers noting that no grave of a dead slave in the Christian catacombs was ever inscribed with the name "slave" . Callixtus, who was once a slave in the third century, became a priest, and the bishop of Rome and is later listed by the Roman Catholic Church as an early Pope.

    In spite of Paul's words in the four instances in his writings. Many "Christians" all throughout this time owned slaves though... even prominent Church fathers. At times they even spoke approvingly of it. Popes even issued edits making it legal to own slaves for even the clergy. These erring Christians were sinning plain and simple. Either knowingly or not they were imitating the "world" around them and not growing into the type of people set forth in the scriptures. The point is that Paul started people to feeling guilty about slavery, got them thinking about it, taught that they were equals to freedmen in God's eyes, and never said one word in support of the ancient institution. An honest reading shows that he was against it in my opinion.

    As I noted earlier, sinful people will always try to justify their evil by whatever means necessary, and usually by whatever prevailing "authority" there is at the time to lend legitimacy to their evil . It's a deceptive tactic and keeps people from thinking for themselves. But, the NT principles were always there for people to check themselves and their societies by as an anchor. Islam has no such anchor in many, many modern civilised aspects.

    Slavery, for the large part pretty much died out in Europe for several centuries and was really revived by the British in the 17th century and other European countries and their colonies followed suit. This was a different situation than the early Church ridding itself of African-Greco-Roman slavery and then at times reversing itself and imitating the pagan cultures it sprang from. This was pure evil from countries whose proponents commonly identified themselves as "Christians". Quite different and much more culpable in my opinion. Serious minded Christians did not see it as consistent with NT teachings though.

    William Wilborforce who was a powerful Christian orator against slavery in the British House of Commons declared once, "Help me O Jesus, and by thy Spirit cleanse me from my pollutions; give me a deeper abhorrence of sin". It was said that his speeches were more powerful when they "appealed to the Christian consciences of Englishmen". He presented a petetition in 1823 to the House to abolish slavery, a petition that his associate Thomas Fowell Buxton moved "as a resolution declaring slavery repugnant to Christianity and the Constitution". A few days before he died he received word that Parliment had passed the Abolition Act in 1833. This Act resulted in freeing 700,000 slaves in the West Indies Colonies.

    Even some early American Presidents owned slaves after echoing Pauls words about how everybody was equal before God; "all men are created equal". Things later got quite nasty in the USA among "Christians" The South was deeply entrenched in it. It was a part of the way of life and culture. Virtually every church denomination had advocates for slavery. They engaged in faulty exegesis by quoting OT passeges that cited its presence, man's sinfulness, blacks perceived inferiority, historical precedent, absolute economic necessity.... just about whatever appeal to authority they could find to justify their evil.

    Eventually Christians wouldn't stand for the inconsistency with NT principles. Two thirds of the Abolitionists in the 1830's were Christian clergymen. This was a powerful moral fighting unit. Elijah Lovejoy the "first Abolitionist Martyr" was a Presbyterian Clergyman. " I shall come out, open, fearlessly and as I hope in a manner as becomes a servant of Jesus Christ when defending his cause". He was killed by pro-slavery radicals in Illinois in 1837. Clergyman Charles T. Torrey helped 100,000 slaves escape northward to freedom. He died in prison serving time for aiding and abbetting slaves. Christiantity must be credited with moving other clergy to abolition causes like, Lovejoy, Finney, Weld, Edward Beecher, Henry Beecher. Lyman Beecher, father of Harriet Beecher Snow thought that abolitism grew out of the Great Revival that preceeded it in the eastern US.

    Lots of lay people exercised their own Christian consciences and practiced civil disobedience for matters of conscience. Many echoed the feeling of one outspoken lay person concerning the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, - "We cannot be Christians and obey it"! Let's not forget Abraham Lincoln either, another outspoken Christian Lay person.

    The book, Uncle Tom's Cabins deserves mention here. As one profesor wrote:

    The book abounds with allusions to biblical references and throughout its emotionally moving pages the author reveals the deep spiritual tensions and conflicts, induced by Christian values, that existed among slave owners. In noting these tensions and conflicts, Stowe shows how slavery violated the teachings of Christ....A sea captain who met her said that he was glad to shake the hand of the one who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. She responded, God wrote it... I merely did his dictation.

    When Brazil outlawed slavery in 1888 all of the West was finally free. Christian abolitionists were active there too. Lecky (who is many times sharply critical of Christianity) says it was the influence of Christianity that ended slavery in the western world. Stark states in a recent book, "the abolition of the New World slavery was initiated and achieved by Christian activists".

    I have found abolition proclamations by Menonites and many others too nurmerous to mention that based their thoughts on scripture whether it was Paul's call to equality for slaves and freedmen, the do unto others rule, Christ dying for all men and many other scriptural references. The point is that slavery for the Christian is totally incompatible with the NT. This laid a foundation for the West to confront its evil.

    Textbooks and essays typically focus on the ways in which "Christians" participated in the sin of slavery and portray it as largely a Western phenomonon practiced by white Europeans and Americans with a Christian background; even though it was indigenous to Africa and Arabian countries before making its way to Europe and beyond. Why? Sociologist Stark says writers do not wish to risk being accused of minimizing "white guilt" . He is not a Christian to my knowledge.

    By contrast, nowhere in the Koran is slavery cast in a negative light and it is assumed in many texts in the Koran and the Hadith, according to Schmidt. Irshad Manji writes, "read it closely and you'll find that the Koran doesn't direct us to release all slaves, just those who their owners decide have the potential to acheive better standing".

    Benard Lewis an American expert on Islam says that to Muslims, "to forbid what God permits is almost as great an offense as to permit what God forbids. Specifically the Koran says, ' O you who believe, do not forbid (yourselves) the good things which Allah has made lawful for you.' (Sura 5: 87) This Koranic principle helps one to understand why it is virtually impossible to see an unequivocal condemnation of slavery, oral or written, by any leading country or authority".

    Muslim slave trading started with Muhammed himself. After he had massacared the Banu Qurayza, he took 1/5 of the take. The women were sold as slaves to the highest bidders. The most attractive ones ended up in harems and his followers have practiced it ever since.

    This may explain why as recently as 1999 a promenient Muslim cleric Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik told Palestinians: "Their [Jewish] women are yours to take legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave them"? Thomas Patrick noted in the Dictionary of Islam: Slavery is in complete harmony with the spirit of Islam, while it is abhorrent to Christianity"

    Muslim countries that have outlawed slavery did so much later than the West. "Muslim countries proved extremely resistant to abolition. Many of them had to be dragged into it by the European colonial powers". It is widely know that the British exerted a lot of pressure to abolish it there.

    Slavery is still common and flourishes in the Sudan and Mauritania and is hardly reported on in the mainstream media. Canada' sMaclean's magazine stated in 2001: "Thousands of people, mostly women and children...have been kidnapped by mauraders backed by the [Islamic] government in the north and sold into slavery. Those who do not accept their fate are often butchered, raped, or killed."

    Tens of thousands of slaves suffer in Sudan right now as I write this and who are they enslaving mostly? Christians. Many are exported to "free" Islamic countries.

    Also, Muslim forces have killed an estimated 2.5 million Christians there. Between 1995 and 2000 more than 30,000 slaves have been purchased by an organization known as Christian Solidarity International to free them . On one eight day trip they purchased 5500 slaves! The U.S. State Dept. statistics on Human Rights in 1996 note that "some 90,000 Mauritanians live under involuntary servitude" - slavery.

    Mohammed Athie of the International Coalition against Chattel Slavery asked for time to speak on behalf of the slaves in Sudan at Louis Farrakhan's million Man March back in 1995. Request denied. This group of American Muslims deny the existance of slavery as does Sudan and Mauritania.

    Reporter Marcus Mabry notes that when Muslims leaders get together from different countries in a forum, slavery is never discussed. "They feel no remorse for the past and no responsibility for the future. This is unfortunate since they have enslaved countless individuals since the time of Mohammed. Where's the moral guilt?

    Benard Lewis notes that " it can be professionally hazardous for a young scholar to turn his attention in this direction". This raises the question of whether or not it would be equally professionally hazardous if studying and writing about slavery in countries that identified with Christianity? This silence will cost the West in my opinion.

    Where is their Muslim guilt I ask? What guilt...their holy book and Prophet is consistent with slavery. To think that simply providing an economic, ethical, or moral elevation to Islam will change them is credulity at best and just plain stubbornness at worst. They need a new prophet that will provide a better example so that their consciences will deal with them internally. They need their own "messiah" who preaches peace. We in the West need to work with their religious leaders, the "spiritual" ones to help change their worldview.

    It may be chic to heap Western guilt and denigrate Christianity to some, but we are digging our own hole if that's all we do. If the USA was a "has been" and Christianity were gone, the world would still be vulnerable to an expansionist religious/political mechine that does not have a foundation of peace like the NT gave the West.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Perry,

    Following your own digression: in the NT itself there is no such thing as a criticism of slavery per se. That "slaves" and "masters" would be accepted as such in the Christian community doesn't change anything to their respective social condition. Do you think people have forgotten the well-known Haustafeln in Post-Pauline epistles?

    Ephesians 6:4ff:

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.

    Colossians 3:22ff:

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for whatever wrong has been done, and there is no partiality. Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, for you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

    1 Timothy 6:1f:

    Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved.

    Titus 2:9f:

    Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.

    1 Peter 2:19f:

    Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval.

    How could Christians possibly think from their own Scripture that slavery was wrong in itself? They only did so when secular conscience came to that conclusion and lead them into a new interpretation of Scripture.

    You are doing what Christian apologetes always do: comparing the best of Christianity to the worst of other religions (in this case Islam), from the perspective of anachronistic standards, which were reached against Christianity as much as because of it.

  • Simon
    Simon

    I've not read all this topic but the bit I have seems very interesting:

    Why do you think that nations where Christianity took root prospered materially and nations where Islam took root seemed to not progress commercially?

    I think there are several factors to this:

    1. The insinuation that prosperity is a by-product of Christianity is wrong IMO. It is a by-product of being geographically located to take advantage of (ie. screw over) the 'new world' of North and South America. More trade routes. Nothing more.

    2. Progress in Christian nations was often in spite of Christianity. People sailed off on ships because they did not believe the religion dogma that the eath was flat etc...

    3. There is a certain amount of "pulling the ladder up". Whichever idology prospered first is then able to put the dampeners on the other. Islam has susvived in spite of quite abhorant explotative practices by the west. Radical islam has probably taken root and prospers because of the same thing.

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