WTS lied about Joseph Priestley and Blood

by hawkaw 68 Replies latest jw friends

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Max,

    And I would be the first of "one person" to answer you.

    If you are DFd, the organization does it through its local representatives the elders. If you are considered DA, you have done it to yourself. The hierarchy wants to wash its hands and say they are not responsible, you are.

    Technically correct. However, Simon (board administrator) was disassociated against his will, never said he wished to be da'd - and put in writing that he did not want to be da'd. They still da'd him.

    Another thing which holds disfellowshipping and disassociation as different from each other is the perception behind the words. When someone has been df'd - they've sinned and may/may not be working at being re-instated. "Who knows what's in their hearts?" A lot of jw's say it is a "form of discipline."

    A disassociated person is considered an apostate - Satan's Follower. Not The Unforgivable Sin - but considered close to it.

    Hope you're feeling better today. By the flowers on your post couple of days ago - I got the feeling all things were not going too well. Sorry to hear about it - hope today's better.

    waiting

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    I need to clarify this further, Waiting. The kind of stuff the men used to pat the women on the head about, which women actually pick up quicker than men because they are so very intuitive about nuances!

    Think about the meaning of the term "disassocate" by itself. This is not semantics or word play about whether I am technically correct. I want to help you understand the concept. If the two categories were not different, there would not be two words used. How are they different?

    Disassociation is what YOU do. (You join the military, I recognize it, announce you have disassociated yourself by your course of action. If I DF you, I am in trouble with the Government; they absolve themselves by using this category.)

    Disassociation by definition is a course of action or something YOU do that tells everyone you are not going to follow their rules. How can I disassociate YOU? Disassociation is not an action performed by the Society or its representatives. Disfellowshipping, however, is just such an act.

    If you are categorized as Disassociated, YOU have chosen to violate some JW standard or rule, and they merely recognize that, by making an announcement as noted above.

    You are quite correct about general perceptions.

    Can they make that decision behind your back? Without your meeting with them? Yes. Even if you tell them you still want to be a JW? If you joined the military, you could tell them you still wanted to be a dub but they would still consider you as DA. (I know nothing about Simon's case, but I have seen some really dumb things elders have done in committees.)

    To repeat: You disassociate yourself by what you do in violation of "God's standards." I then tell the world about it via an announcement. In disfellowshipping I the Society am the one acting, and make an announcement. Again, the result is the same, shunning. But pay careful attention to the subtle distinctions. Particularly with blood transfusion.

    So the Society and its reps would hold that it is not accurate to say THEY disassociated Simon against his will. What locals or the branch likely did is come to a decision that "by his course of action" he had disassociated HIMSELF. And they announced it despite any protestation.

    If they sent him a letter saying "We hereby disassociate you," I want to see it. It would obviate the very reason for the category in the first place. The standard announcement is: "By his chosen course [name] has shown that he no longer desires to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses." Who did it? You did.

    That distinction is very important when it comes to accountability. The Society is trying to shuck responsibility in more and more areas, in self-protection. Committees have practically begged individuals to do the manly thing (sorry about the sexist language; theirs not mine), not to be a coward, sign a letter, to avoid the slightest hint of responsibility on their part.

    Hope this helps.

    Some deaths left me anguished; thanks for the thoughts. Lots of fun chatter on the board, but for many it's life-or-death serious, especially when it seems there is no way out.

    Maximus
    'Sokay, I know a non-JW MD who was totally baffled by this--at first.

  • Eusebius Hieronymus
    Eusebius Hieronymus

    For those who don't like their reading dumbed down.

    Jerry

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    As for eating blood, I will never do that. I'm certain it doesn't taste very good.

    As for as having a transfusion of blood, I will never do that, either. I couldn't afford to have one.

    So, as for me, I will die without ever having taken another's blood into my body.

    I wish I could just have a blood transfusion, though, if for nothing else than to raise the big middle finger to those Pharisaic liars in Brooklyn.

    I'll let God sort it out if I ever get one, and should I get the chance to confront him before being sent to eternal oblivion, I would just ask him this one question:

    "Why will you doom me for eternity because you consider a "symbol" of life to be more important than the actual LIFE that "symbol" represents? Why do you respect and honor symbols more than the very life you created, God"

    If he sends me to hell/hades/whatever, then he is as big a jerk as his Watchtower Representatives are, and I will be glad to take his punishment. I will go with my middle finger raised high to this idiocy.

    Farkel
    Not-Very-Scholarly Class

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw
    I will go with my middle finger raised high to this idiocy.

    I will be right beside you with mine raised too Farkel.

    Great quote.

    hawk

    p.s. - Jerry - thanks for the "thinking bump"

  • waiting
    waiting

    My Dear Max,

    Damn it, man! I understand your discussion - woman or not.

    I sometimes do understand the semantics as used by the WTBTS - and it is word play and semantics. It's done well by lawyers and the locals are screwed. Technically, they seem to have it down pat. It's not much different than the famous WTBTS statement "we do not sever family ties." Technically true - you've still got a mother - she just won't talk to you. WTBTS statement "we don't shun members who simply cease to be active." Technically true - if they're members, they're not shunned. It's x-members who are shunned.

    Of course, they initiated two different words - shift the blame from the local elders to the local jw, who basically has no defense as it's deemed "he did it to himself. Such a shame."

    This is WTBTS legalistics at it's best. As some others brought out (Seeker etc.), we've got to learn to fight them with their own words - but we've got to understand them and their words first.

    Perhaps the WTBTS is interpretating Frank Lloyd Wright: "God is in the details."

    Forever yours , waiting

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    So do you, Waiting and Max want to think some more -

    Look at the title of this book:

    A dissertation on baptism, and letters on the Sinai covenant : together with an inquiry into the lawfulness of eating blood

    There is only one copy in Canada and its coming my way within 2 weeks. For now, I will let you do the thinking why I brought this one up.

    Take care and hope you enjoyed the preview.

    hawk (hehehehhehe)

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Thank you Maximus, hawkaw, Marvin and Farkel for your in-depth search into this issue.

    It just seems the deceipt and twisting of quotations to fit their agenda just keeps on coming.

    You people are doing us all such a service that cannot be minimized or overlooked. The average Joe Blow JW just has absolutely no idea of any of this info. To them, as has been stated to me over and over again..."the Bible stands firm in its law to abstain from blood." They don't even know about the allowances now.

    For the WTS to add the misapplied quotations which in effect amount to nothing more than lies, on top of keeping the r&f confused as to "acceptable fractions", is an abomination. I start to boil over each time I see the pain in my friend's eyes over the df'ing of her son whose father allowed a blood transfusion for him after a life-threatening car accident years ago and the rift it has caused in her family.

    Add to that pain, a thousand-fold for the ones whose lives have been permantly torn apart by the death of a loved one over the no-blood stand.

    If what you are uncovering can make a difference, I join the ranks of those who will be forever indebted to you all for your tireless efforts.

    Had Enough

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    Stay tuned, looks like the Raptor has more in store.

    Farkel? In-depth? Rascal caused ME to receive a hot e-mail asking me to denounce him publicly, because he said in his post above he would take a transfusion if he could afford it. <cough>

    Waiting, you are such a joy.

    Had Enough, just remember it's "abstain ... from blood" and not "abstain from blood." The Devil is in the dots.

    Maximus

  • Eusebius Hieronymus
    Eusebius Hieronymus

    Waiting, the thought occurs that you were kindly asking about me in a comment above. Thanks. I think my picture may look like Copernicus. Or maybe I'm just tired. Courtesy of a fixed Nic link, here's something your agile brain will have fun with, the additional material to what Max calls The Flog book.

    <During the Kingdom Ministry Schools that were held during November and December of 1994, elders in the United States were given information that was to be written into their "Pay Attention To Yourselves And To All The Flock" book.

    <This information concerned the S77 and S79 forms that local judicial committees use to report disfellowshippings to the branch office in Brooklyn.

    <The following was read to the elders, twice, for them to write word for word into their books.
    <It can therefore be rightly considered to be an add-on or revision to the Manual.

    "Six Expressions That Should Not Be Used on S77 and S79 Forms

    1. Anything alluding to or naming one of the Society's attorneys
    2. Any mention of the Legal Department
    3. Any comments referring to direction from the Society
    4. Any comments mentioning anyone other than the committee itself as a possible influence in the decision reached
    5. Any comments that might suggest to someone with a critical eye that the committee did not reach its decision on its own but, instead, somehow yielded to the influence of an outside party
    6. Any comments indicating that the elders mishandled the case or committed any error in the investigation or the judicial committee process."

    The Society has nicely washed its hands of responsibility. If there was error or mishandling, no one will know about it.

    Elders are on their own! Screw up and you will twist slowly in the wind, nobody to protect you, while the Brooklyn gerontocrats enjoy travel to the next Zone trip. Some kid bleeding to death? "Wait on Jehovah."

    Supposed you screwed up an abuse case--at their well-disguised direction?
    Hmmmmm.

    Jerry

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