seattleniceguy: Well I didn't mean for it to sound like I was against science, but I see what you mean. I was really getting at the layman, i.e. someone who isn't a scientist and only learns what he needs to know to progress in his life, including perhaps some minor focussed interest on some random topic. Curiosity is great, but what's the point if the curiosity gets aimed in a completely fruitless direction that yields nothing less than wrong answers? In that case it's better not to have even wasted the time, at least in my opinion - unless you derive some enjoyment from ascertaining wrong info. I guess what you're getting at is getting your curiosity satisfied, even if the satisfaction comes from something that is not demonstratable (and therefore most likely incorrect). I am definitely NOT an atheist, nor am I suggesting anyone become one. I say sitting on the fence is the closest thing you can get to being accurate at this point in time... But I also look for evidence of what's true and what isn't, because even if I don't believe anything for certain, my views CAN be influenced towards a certain direction if the likelihood (that is, probability) of something being true over something else looks more favorable. For instance, creationist ideas vs the theory of evolution. There are new discoveries being made the world over that provide more links to support the evolutionary theory. For instance, a recent one is hominins (also referred to as hobbits in lieu of the recent Lord of the Rings remake). These little half-sized humanoids used miniature tools, had some sort of social structure and interacted with the size of humans we are used to, but unfortunately for them they were all wiped out for some reason or another (probably food shortage). I don't have the link handy so I suggest that anyone interested who hasn't heard about this search it up.
Tigerman: I'm afraid you'll have to explain what you're talking about better if you want me to have any inkling of understanding as what you mean...
formerout: Read what I said a little more carefully... it's not that I'm against wondering the big questions specifically, it's that I'm against deciding on answers as true rather than just leaving oneself open to all possibilities. My mind floats around on different issues all the time, but I never make the mistake of just deciding on one answer. It's easy to just juggle around a couple idea and see them all as possible without picking one. I think searching for any kind of golden enlightenment without being able to know verifiably is foolish and once again, delusional. Of course we're ignorant? So what? That only proves that we cannot verifiably know almost anything that the mystical pertains to, and furthermore what is the point of calling yourself enlightened if it only equivalates to being a regular person (except that you go around calling yourself enlightened, thereby making yourself look pretentious and arrogant). Besides isn't 'truly enlightened' intended to mean that someone knows everything? I can assure you there is no such thing in truth in the human race. And as you should know, whenever I make a definite statement like that, using 'there is', I am never meaning for certain, I am meaning the lean of probability is far against it. It takes PROOF to tip the scales in the favor of the unbelievable. Unconditional love? Please, shed this fairy tale notion that humanity is going to unite and band together as one, that everyone is going to drop all traces of violence, greed, and corruption. It just isn't happening. Our nature as a race is to try to seek out the best circumstances, which leads to some people stepping on others' toes as it were. You won't get this boring gray utopian paradise of love you dream of. Just drop it... You're only setting yourself up for the fall. Questioning the craziness around you is not pessimism. If you think it's negative to think of the mundane things as the only thing, then you are not alone and you are among the billions of people on this earth I pity as being too weak to accept the most likely truth.
Carmel: I'm aware that genetics make us each a little different from one another. But in a sense humans do not variate all that much, it is really a subjective matter of thinking whether the spectrum of human differences constitutes a vast and wide amount of changse between individuals or whether it is rather small in comparison to other things that can variate in slightly different configurations of their particles. It isn't a waste of time to ponder these things, but it is a waste of time to decide on one, and start molding your life around it. I disagree that the desire for knowledge pushes 'us' forward. I think it varies, but in general, the majority of the population is quite content living as comfortably as it can without really making any new discoveries, but rather being fed a series of information it desires as told by someone else. This is a different thing from being a scientist discovering new information on a frontier left unexplored, even if it is as small as determining which kinds of cotton shrink the least in the wash. Mathematics, as you say, do not lean against the probability of intelligence forming - obviously, since it happened! What would be the error in this are the factors considered for intelligence to form. You take the time life has been on this planet, consider a number of factors we are probably never going to know (such as how many species developed, ecosystems, 'adaptations' [or random developments] in organisms that happened to be favorable with said ecosystems, natural disasters, and well, a whole flood of points that would just be take an insurmountable of paleontological work, among other fields). If life is here, and mathematics function, then the error would lie in the formula that for calculating the chance of life occurring, is my point. Yes, religion can have its benefits for us and boons for humanity, but as a whole it I think it would serve everyone better if it were not around all. Wishful thinking! I was only wondering why people do it, I already know that mysticism is never going to go away! I never meant to say that there are absolutely no answers - but I am certain that there are no actual truthful explanations for them right now, and I feel that science is the only way we are going to push to knowing anything about those questions in a more 'certain' sense. Laws and rules in society are set down for two reasons: For dominance/control for the government so that it is not uprooted, and for protection/aid of the people at large. Of course there are laws, so what? If we didn't have them with a government mob of police to point guns at us to make us do what they say, then people would do what they want. Human nature, nay, primate nature, at its finest. Religious authority only ever was a form of government, shrug, if you don't see it that way because you are mystical then that is your bias, not mine.
formerout (again): The bigger laws that govern the Universe? I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken. You may see yourself as benign, but that does not extend the morals held in your brain to blanket the entire universe. Creatures are not on equal terms with one another. That's what survival of the fittest is all about. I agree that morals are a good thing to have, because they are a generally beneficial thing to utilize so that (hopefully) other people will treat you the same way back. They are a form of etiquette for life that can, as you say, be ignored. They are as made up as any other laws or rules however. Mystical beliefs aside, when some woman in a poor country buries her newborn baby in the ground while its still alive and no one ever discovers this, the baby has lost, and she has got away with this act. I see it as cruel and horrible as anyone does, but I was raised to believe that killing was wrong and to try to be a compassionate person. Morality, like our laws, are merely a system for living that was invented to theoretically be the best way of running things in our lives, as in society. If everyone followed them, yes, great, but as I said it isn't going to happen, at least not through any humanitarian means (genetic manipulation, brainwashing from birth of every newborn human........etc). Some people are just quirky. Einstein was one of them. So what? I see every person involved in mysticism as the same way.
frankiespeakin: You seem confused too. It is similar to the nominal fallacy to explain something by what it is in this case. "The brain thinks like a brain because it is...a brain. That's just what it does." I am questioning the basis for need to turn to these mystical searches through the ideas of other people rather than leaving one's mind completely open to possibility, swayed only by proof/evidence/heightened possibility. All I'm getting so far is that people like believing life is magical because it makes them happy. That's great, I just wish people would quit beating around the bush.
Preston: Well my question was actually to get an understand of the opposing viewpoint. But just to clarify of who I am and who the opposition are: I am of the people who do not choose something as 'true', the people who are not swayed without evidence and proof. I am questioning the opposition; those who do decide something is true, often with things like 'faith' to back it up, without verifiable proof for all to see. And I'm asking them; why? Why do you have to be so crazy and illogical? I am hoping to discern some logic to their searches and to their decisions to believe - so far, like I said, I'm getting it's because it enriches their lives even if it's not verifiably true. And that's good. But I also see religion mucking up lives, as it did mine. So questioning it really isn't just a stab at the opposition, it's an inquisition to whether it's all worth it. You are right, people do need to feel important in some way. Whether this is a trait of our entire species or not, I'm not sure. Maybe some people don't care and I just haven't met them... who knows. I think you are dead on with the 'easy answers' comment. I don't think it's necessary for everyone's mental health, just those without the integrity and guts to know that the mundane is all you get. I see it as a stage of growing as a person, a stage which many people never overcome for whatever reason. If you don't leave the magical world of dreams and illusions behind you, you never fully grow...whether this is such a bad thing, I'm not sure, but I don't like the problems these mystical beliefs have caused in some lives...hence back to the questioning. It is not a matter of hope whether people care about others' deaths, it is a matter of using what you see to better shape your understanding of the nature of humanity. The more you seem to understand from what you have personally seen, the less you will be shocked. The less shocking life is, the less stressed you are, and hence the more enjoyment you can derive from it. Or at least....that's how it runs for me.
frankiespeakin (again): Actually that is not true. Many primates can think in a dulled, slower way with a memory far lesser in comparison to ours. Even insects and fish have memories, even if they are short. Chimpanzees and dolphins hold a remarkable intellect, with complicated systems of speech and social behaviour. Chimpanzees can be taught rudimentary tasks that a child could be taught, even those involving speech. Chimpanzees have feelings too, or at least, as much of that as can be observed as from watching a human. Our minds are simply, faster, better and able to hold a whole load more symbols than that of a chimp's or another animal's. In actuality, most people can only remember something like 7 to 9 items at a time, before they begin to push the oldest items from their active memory to squeeze in new ones. Memorization generally is influenced greatly by this. Our minds, like our bodies, are finite, and the pretentious assumption that our minds have some great power of infinite dimensions is just well, wrong.
